WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
how does kilik constitute everyone?
Theory Calibur/Go to DEV/Like This Post Thread
- Thread starter lobo
- Start date
docvizzo
[14] Master
So first of all, you play Ivy. Maybe you shouldnt be all up in his face. Ever thought about that. Lol why would you eat so many ch of one of the shortest ranged mids in the game? And of course you have to anticipate it to step it, just like every move. But in this case you can punish him with almost anything.
And is it really so hard to anticipate? He can do it ONLY when you are close range. Its pretty predictable. Then again its a special mid which most people tend to forget. You can block it while standing HIGH and LOW. If he does IMCF (Block) into FC 3K gimmicks just, block low a couple of times, then he will be forced to use more 4KB, 8K mixups etc.
Ever thought about jumping moves? (then again be carefull against 44Bb) Or maybe just dont attack in situations where he can land iMCF? Just avoid being in MCF Range. If you dont manage to do that with Ivy than you suck, admit it.
Watch some Vids of Malek vs. Furzy and quit whining about this move. and maybe put up a vid of you, so we can see this OP move in action, cause basically everything you say is wrong.
IvyFanboy
[11] Champion
With Algol I personally have no issue with him. Ivy has a good match up and bubbles are easily punished. My Rock on the other hand....I mean yeah he's Rock (and my Rock is only average at best), but getting through bubbles is always an uphill battle. I've heard a lot of complaints that some characters have issue and having seen the limited options with Rock I can sympathize that they're on to something, but I can see plenty of characters with anti's. So I'm just voicing concerns I've heard.
The reason I eat iMCF is he focuses on knockdowns and then goes into anti-wake up games. He uses the knockdown to close the gap. I can keep him out most the time, but one he's in i have to be careful pushing him back out and sometimes that results in an iMCF. I know counters and I've adapted to the obvious set ups, but iMCF still happens a lot, and 70% of the time a landed iMCF is RO for me. This is the only Yoshi player I've had this issue with so maybe it's not a common occurrence for most people. And this is really an issue of remove the slide RO and it's fine, it can still RO but the range is just too much and I don't think anything in that is unreasonable to state. I'm not saying nerf iMCF, just nerf the reward of the combo's it can lead to.
This is also credited to my stance on not having such long range RO's in the game. RO's should be a reward for capitalizing on a players mistake in both frames and stage position; if you make the positioning aspect too accessible it often leads to only 1 mistake being needed as over the course of the match the optimal positioning has become coincidentally convenient rather than an intended flow of the battle. Yoshi iMCF can kill you at the dead start of a match as an opener if you don't respect it. While you should know better...that range is still retarded. It's the same reason why a lot of people hate the Seesaw level, RO's aren't skilled positioning (IVY CH WP 6AA is easy to see coming, but it still occasionally lands and it's usually GG if it hits, so if you delay a step at start or do a slower move you just lost on my opener!). Really the only long range RO im cool with is NM 1A GS KK. It's not as far as Yoshi's, damage isn't as high, and the set up is a slow and unsafe. RO's should cap out at 40% distance of smallest stage, there's no need for it to ever exceed that.
The reason I eat iMCF is he focuses on knockdowns and then goes into anti-wake up games. He uses the knockdown to close the gap. I can keep him out most the time, but one he's in i have to be careful pushing him back out and sometimes that results in an iMCF. I know counters and I've adapted to the obvious set ups, but iMCF still happens a lot, and 70% of the time a landed iMCF is RO for me. This is the only Yoshi player I've had this issue with so maybe it's not a common occurrence for most people. And this is really an issue of remove the slide RO and it's fine, it can still RO but the range is just too much and I don't think anything in that is unreasonable to state. I'm not saying nerf iMCF, just nerf the reward of the combo's it can lead to.
This is also credited to my stance on not having such long range RO's in the game. RO's should be a reward for capitalizing on a players mistake in both frames and stage position; if you make the positioning aspect too accessible it often leads to only 1 mistake being needed as over the course of the match the optimal positioning has become coincidentally convenient rather than an intended flow of the battle. Yoshi iMCF can kill you at the dead start of a match as an opener if you don't respect it. While you should know better...that range is still retarded. It's the same reason why a lot of people hate the Seesaw level, RO's aren't skilled positioning (IVY CH WP 6AA is easy to see coming, but it still occasionally lands and it's usually GG if it hits, so if you delay a step at start or do a slower move you just lost on my opener!). Really the only long range RO im cool with is NM 1A GS KK. It's not as far as Yoshi's, damage isn't as high, and the set up is a slow and unsafe. RO's should cap out at 40% distance of smallest stage, there's no need for it to ever exceed that.
teflon2105
[09] Warrior
lol,
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Dude theres no fucking way 70 percent of the time he hits an iMCF on you , your rung out...
Are you playing a stage without walls every game? Your posts are way over exaggerated... and your stating basicly one iMCF at any point in the match is a win for Yoshi.
Im pretty sure Furzy and DTN would wipe the floor with Rayikin... So stop saying its not a common occurence for some people...
DOC plays FURZY ALL THE DAMN TIME! LoL Id say he def knows more of what hes talking about than yourself.
The slide RO is fine... Nothing OP about it or you would have already seen 20 tourneys won by yoshi.
IvyFanboy
[11] Champion
I'm basing this from raft size stages. The combo goes 60% of the stage.
Yoshi can't fully run around and rely on iMCF for obvious reasons so the assumption that he would be winning tournaments off this one OP aspect is not a valid argument. That would be like saying Ivy wins because she has SW A+B (yes she wins...but that's not why). It's just one strong tool.
You haven't seen Rayikin play, he doesn't do tournaments due to his life, but he's got some interesting strategies and talents. So you can't really make any assumptions. This is my personal experience with a high level Yoshi and on several occasions it's seemed iMCF has often turned the tide of battle and coincidentally done many long range RO's with out the intention to RO givin how far away we were. It supports my opinion that RO's need to have heavier influence on staging than convenience. Many characters follow that rule, but a few can turn a lucky poke into a win without much regard to how the opportunity was created.
I'm not claiming Yoshi is cheap, Rayikin uses some really tricky shit on me to land these and the connect is completely fair, but even with that the reward is just too great in the spirit of good game balance. Thankfully this strategy is limited due to circumstance on hit, but not enough in circumstance of positioning. I'm fairly sure if Ivy's SW CH 1K lead into rocket launcher people would be bitching.
Make note the developers have acknowledged that slide RO's are too much and have removed them...only supporting my claim even further. Evidence +1
Yoshi can't fully run around and rely on iMCF for obvious reasons so the assumption that he would be winning tournaments off this one OP aspect is not a valid argument. That would be like saying Ivy wins because she has SW A+B (yes she wins...but that's not why). It's just one strong tool.
You haven't seen Rayikin play, he doesn't do tournaments due to his life, but he's got some interesting strategies and talents. So you can't really make any assumptions. This is my personal experience with a high level Yoshi and on several occasions it's seemed iMCF has often turned the tide of battle and coincidentally done many long range RO's with out the intention to RO givin how far away we were. It supports my opinion that RO's need to have heavier influence on staging than convenience. Many characters follow that rule, but a few can turn a lucky poke into a win without much regard to how the opportunity was created.
I'm not claiming Yoshi is cheap, Rayikin uses some really tricky shit on me to land these and the connect is completely fair, but even with that the reward is just too great in the spirit of good game balance. Thankfully this strategy is limited due to circumstance on hit, but not enough in circumstance of positioning. I'm fairly sure if Ivy's SW CH 1K lead into rocket launcher people would be bitching.
Make note the developers have acknowledged that slide RO's are too much and have removed them...only supporting my claim even further. Evidence +1
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Refer back to docvizzo's post.... Prosper.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
please if you have ever listened to me, listen to me now
USE ROCKS 1A AGAINST BUBBLE SPAM ALGOL
the bubble will trade but your 1A does much more damage, I've probably said this 1000 times to you. the trade is totally in your favor you only take 10 dmg and get a knock down
also try the step left> GI > 4(A+B) that shit works wonders.
you realize I'm trying to be civil with you right now and give you legit and productive responses instead of just making fun of you right?
IvyFanboy
[11] Champion
My bitch is not that the move is unfair to land and i need a counter in terms of preventing it in the first place, my issue is that even applying these tactics, IF it hit you (and yes CH iMCFs do in fact land) the reward is too much given the range of the RO combo. It's not a matter of misinformation or me doing something wrong, it's the fact that this move CAN do this if it connects I'm not cool with. RO's being a 1 hit kill need to have more respect to staging, you should not have to fear being carried across half the stage at any given moment. There should be moments where you should feel safe, and others where you have to make a choice to play at the risk because you were carried there, or maneuver your way to safety.
So once again since I've had to explain this a million times, my complaint is that RO's should have more respect to situational staging based on intended setup rather than be a common coincidental convenience when you hit confirm. You have to limit when an RO is a possibility so that the players must play around it by entering and escaping the threat, this is when RO's add excellent depth to the game play. I don't think the developers ever intended for our combos to carry as far as they did as we've seen by them nerfing EXACTLY what I'm complaining about in BD.
So once again since I've had to explain this a million times, my complaint is that RO's should have more respect to situational staging based on intended setup rather than be a common coincidental convenience when you hit confirm. You have to limit when an RO is a possibility so that the players must play around it by entering and escaping the threat, this is when RO's add excellent depth to the game play. I don't think the developers ever intended for our combos to carry as far as they did as we've seen by them nerfing EXACTLY what I'm complaining about in BD.
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
Well... you make good points, but I see it in a different way. I dont think Raph has no pushback. I see his range an advantage in itself. A great step etc. Before we go on I want to know what is this about, does some Raph player need help or its another tier discussion? Lets talk about concrete examples, not general theory.
What is interesting however, when my VS Amy videos first come to web I got a lot of feedback from top Amy players of the world , who told me "Edge is not playing right" , "he should use more lows" etc. Until EVO that is. Much like what you're saying. I assure you, Edge is in no way a weak player and if Raph was so low tier he definitely wouldnt be losing so badly against him.
To get an idea of how strong Edge is, you must remember Rufus, so Edge is slightly better that Rufus and also has much better matchup knowledge. Although I'm flattered you say "you're the best" (I know you think Omega is the best though, so I wont fall for it!), I still think you give Edge too little credit.
PS: Answer my PM's once in awhile please. Do you ever check your inbox?
Senzait
Steamed Buns!!
No.. it does not RO 60% of raft size stage. Unless your talking about a combo involving 4A
A:A. Which you stated your not Im guessing your referring to CH iMCF, 22B, 3AB, 44Bb, a:B+K etc. In which case no it doesn't RO for 60% raft stage. It actually is <50%.
Signia
[13] Hero
Idk what everyone's problem with talking about "theory," it's one of the few things that are worth doing on the forums, other than shit talking and getting help
what move is this??? 3B is i19 btw...
IvyFanboy
[11] Champion
I don't know what the inputs are beyond is starting as iMCF and ending at earslicer, but on the rafts sized stages they can use it as an opener and gain an RO. He might be using a less damaging farther ranged variant. Still, the slide RO is too much and it's gone now so apparently I wasn't alone in thinking they were too much.
MONEYMUFFINS
[13] Hero
What's the problem with theory? Talking about theory as if everyone should know it to be true already makes you look like something you're not. Give substance to what you say first (i.e. winning a lot of money matches/tourney matches.)
lobo
Luminario
i hold with idlemind in that the ONLY reason cervy isn't considered top tier in the USA is because hates quit playing.
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Its gone now? I can think of alot of moves that still slide you out for an RO... So no it isnt gone... They knew it slid out before the 1.03 update... Watch the combo movie namco made themselves! Half the combos they do push you across the whole stage. They knew we would figure out ones that carry further.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
its gone in BD all slide RO's are so no more maxi RC B ground hit ROs
IvyFanboy
[11] Champion
While credentials give your voice power, you can still be right based on the pure logic of the matter regardless. In game success is attributed to application of theory, and while you may be limited by your capacity to execute said theory, once a player can it validates it. I found some new stuff on X-23 and gave theory on usage, stating I was not near skilled enough to apply it in a fight, but sure enough someone read my thread and did give life to it.
Games evolve and theory helps that process. What might not be necessary to win can later become a valuable tool to surpass a new trend of players. Plus there's always those oddball players who can apply obscure tactics deemed to unreliable for actual combat and later do well (Gief players in SF2 if my history is correct)
Games evolve and theory helps that process. What might not be necessary to win can later become a valuable tool to surpass a new trend of players. Plus there's always those oddball players who can apply obscure tactics deemed to unreliable for actual combat and later do well (Gief players in SF2 if my history is correct)
RedDjinn
Dat Hillbilly
Oh right... Ive never played BD so I dont consider them "getting rid of it"
I thought we were talking about SC4 here... not BD.
I thought we were talking about SC4 here... not BD.
LP
Premium Member
GODDAMN!!!! How do you people post so much over night!?
People complain about theory fighting and ban-talk/bitching, but it brings in those war bux! Going to try to read over everything, but I think I've effectively been ousted from this conversation. =(
People complain about theory fighting and ban-talk/bitching, but it brings in those war bux! Going to try to read over everything, but I think I've effectively been ousted from this conversation. =(