Tier Discussion

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So I haven't really followed the Tier Discussion in SC4, but is it always like this ?

A thread where the most retarded posters like Un-Truth and darkfender consistently spew bullshit nonsense and others keep replying to them ?
 
SomeRandmFreak said:
Tbh I feel like there's only three or four players who could actually make a valid tier list right now. I feel like people are basing their tier lists by looking at frame data rather than thinking about the battle system itself.
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Just what I said...even high class players are making their lists by data frame only which is totally wrong.

And by the way Darkdefender is not a noob nor a retard.
 
He might not be, but he sure sounds like it. 99% of his input is trying to explain how his main Raphael sucks.

But yeah I would agree that tier lists are pretty weird right now. The methodology in the French forums, i.e. making a matchup chart, makes much more sense to me.
 
PriZm said:
He might not be, but he sure sounds like it. 99% of his input is trying to explain how his main Raphael sucks.

But yeah I would agree that tier lists are pretty weird right now. The methodology in the French forums, i.e. making a matchup chart, makes much more sense to me.
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No...I mean it has some sense in it, the character with more good MUs is the top character and stuff but no...there are tons of other things to consider.

And Darkdefender is saying that Raph sucks CAUSE HE DOES! Raph is by far the lowest tier on this game no argument there.
 
Well if you are so affected by your perceived suckitude of a character, drop him and move on.

And what are these 'tons of other things' ?
 
coth_x said:
The matchups already should be considering everything.

What else needs consideration?


Also, love how everyone actually tries to talk to the truth guy.
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I guess you are right if the MU is actually considering every aspect and mechanic and not only frame data then yes, is enough.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
Why the hell does it matter if it's -1 or 0 on block? It's a stance move. SCH K trades with i11. That's all that matters. Even for 8WayRun this is an incredibly stupid and pointless argument.
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Oh don't get me wrong, it doesnt make a difference. But since he was so nitpicky to solo's statement, i thought it would be appropriate to tell him, that solo is actually right.

Edit: Also since his fastest option post 3(B) is his SCHK, makes the move effectively -11. For example, simply blocking comes out after 20 frames. You can definitely punish it, its not safe.
If it would be safe on block, alpha couldn't CE punish him, right?
 
ChaosK said:
Oh don't get me wrong, it doesnt make a difference. But since he was so nitpicky to solo's statement, i thought it would be appropriate to tell him, that solo is actually right.

Edit: Also since his fastest option post 3(B) is his SCHK, makes the move effectively -11. For example, simply blocking comes out after 20 frames. You can definitely punish it, its not safe.
If it would be safe on block, alpha couldn't CE punish him, right?
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only Cervantes and alpha CE are the only move guarantee to punish on block. yep you can definitely punish it.

oh and saying 3(B) is -1 doesn't make him "actually right".
 
Djangoknight said:
only Cervantes and alpha CE are the only move guarantee to punish on block. yep you can definitely punish it.

oh and saying 3(B) is -1 doesn't make him "actually right".
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Well the question was if it was neutral on block, and he said its not because its -1, so he is right. Its not a big deal though, i get that.

Warning: Wall of text incoming.

About the punishment, its a little bit deeper than that. You have to separate between two situations, first on short range and second on mid range.

In general the move is much safer on short range since you are in knee range (SCH K, hits you in i11). Since you need an i10 move, its only punishable by few chars, like natsu with her AA or her A6 , Yoshis mcf or alphas CE.
If you have an i11 you can trade, which should most of the time be in your favor because the knee does 12 damage.

On mid range you have plenty more options. With mid range, i am referring to "outside of knee range", not unlikely since its very short. His fastest options here are SCH A and SCH B, both are at i18. So you can punish with everything thats i17 or faster. In general this is a lot easier to punish for long range chars. For example in the mirror match, i punish 3(B) with B6.
You are looking for a move that is a) i17 or faster and b) has long range and doesn't move your chars hitbox into SCH K range (this is important).
Of course this can be a difficult task for short range chars but you should go into p-mode and see what options your char has.

There certainly are chars that just have no options to punish it but you shouldn't just abandon it and say its neutral, so i can't do anything. Fact is, the move has enormously good risk/reward but its not completely safe. There are quite a lot more possibilities to punish it than people believe.

A lot of people just don't even try to look up what their own char can do against it, i for one gladly take my B6 punish.
 
how is B6 a punish when he can 2B+K, B, 3B/CE 74/110 damage
at mid-long range is where 3(B) shine even more, 3(B) into B+K or 2B+K can evade or GI just about everything from that range.
 
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