Tier Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
windirein said:
^That 1K mounts up to enough damage over the course of a full match. Unseeable and quick, forces many "situations".
Click to expand...

It's not a horrible low, but I wouldn't say it's very good either. It's slow on start-up (though tbf it is unseeable due to its weird animation), has crappy range and very little tracking. Other than that, the only useable low O.Pyrrha has (needless to say the likes of 1A are practically useless lol) is 2K, which is basically identical to everyone else's lol. Most other characters who people think will be top tier have at least one solid low in their arsenal - regular Pyrrha's 1K is awesome at close range, as is Patroklos' 1K.

Not that this makes O.Pyrrha garbage of course - she has plenty of stuff to make up for it. But I do think she's probably only upper-mid and not top tier. I mention the low thing because it's one of her more obvious weaknesses - stuff like not being able to combo into her CE properly is annoying too.
 
I've never understood why Namco always likes to give their sword-and-shield characters a stabbity stab move that does massive damage and which is relatively safe. Leixia literally can't punish it with anything other than BB, unless I'm mistaken.
 
FallenAngelII said:
I've never understood why Namco always likes to give their sword-and-shield characters a stabbity stab move that does massive damage and which is relatively safe. Leixia literally can't punish it with anything other than BB, unless I'm mistaken.
Click to expand...

All characters which have a "punisher"-type move like 236B or Omega's DS/DNS B all impact at 14 frames and have a negative sixteen (-16) on block. Only exception is Alpha. In other words, if you're playing Leixia and block 236B/DS B/DNS B, you can punish that with Leixia's own punisher; 6KK. Though Leixia has a lot of moves at 14 frames or less (including her BB, and 3K), 6KK is her chief punisher.
 
Most quick punishers have range issues though. Alpha omega and pyrrha can all punish moves that are relatively safe vs the rest of the cast, not because of frame issues but because of the range. Thats an issue especially vs characters like siggi or nightmare, who you could in theory punish alot, but in practice you simply cant reach em.
 
Windstar said:
All characters which have a "punisher"-type move like 236B or Omega's DS/DNS B all impact at 14 frames and have a negative sixteen (-16) on block. Only exception is Alpha. In other words, if you're playing Leixia and block 236B/DS B/DNS B, you can punish that with Leixia's own punisher; 6KK. Though Leixia has a lot of moves at 14 frames or less (including her BB, and 3K), 6KK is her chief punisher.
Click to expand...
Didn't know it had that much frame disadvantage. Still, it should be so unasfe I can 3B them (unless 3B is actually fast enough and I'm just not timing it well enough). It should be so unsafe a lot of people can use their chief launchers to get off an air juggle. Because it's just that strong. It's fast, it's mid and it does massive damage.
 
windirein said:
Most quick punishers have range issues though. Alpha omega and pyrrha can all punish moves that are relatively safe vs the rest of the cast, not because of frame issues but because of the range. Thats an issue especially vs characters like siggi or nightmare, who you could in theory punish alot, but in practice you simply cant reach em.
Click to expand...

While this is true, as an aside, Leixia's 6KK has the same range as Pyrrha's and Omega's punishers.
 
Thought i'd update my tier list according to the playtime we now had. A lot of the characters turned out to be better than expected. Notice that my top tier and mid tier is rather big, i am aware that in that tier itself, some chars may be better than others. Some mid tier char might be very close to being top or vice versa for example.

S Tier: Alpha, Omega, Natsu (still think she is bonkers, especially after i spend some weeks playing her)

Top Tier: Patroklos, Pyrrha, Nightmare, Maxi, Leixia, Mitsurugi, Cervantes, Algol, Xiba

Mid Tier: Raphael, Ivy, Zwei (he is way better than people think of him),
Astaroth, Devil Jin (honestly i cant understand all the hassle about him, his ring out is amazing but other than that he feels mediocre to me), Yoshi, Ezio, Tira, Hilde, Voldo

Low Tier: Aeon, Damp (might be higher but he is still a "?" to me), Sieg, Viola

You can now criticize me for how wrong my list is.
 
Pyrrha's and Omega's 236B is i14 from neutral (i13 from FC)
Leixia's 6KK is i14.

It doesn't matter if it's less safe or not (IIRC both 236B and 6KK are -16) when it's used as a punisher. The main difference here is damage.
 
FallenAngelII said:
I'm pretty sure it's slower, though. Also, less safe.
Click to expand...

Actually, Leixia's 6KK has the same start-up as 236B, and they're all -16 on block. Yes, if these moves were safe, they would be overpowered. But they aren't, so... yeah. They're great block punishers, and that's it.

ChaosK said:
You can now criticize me for how wrong my list is.
Click to expand...

Your list doesn't seem disastrously awful, but there are a few things that I can't agree with right now.

* No way is Viola in the same league as Aeon and Dampierre. Her zoning capabilities and close-range pressure are too good for that. She might not be top tier, but I refuse to believe she's that bad.

* I personally would say that regular Pyrrha > Omega Pyrrha (not that O.Pyrrha is bad, of course).

* I don't think Nightmare's that good - no better than mid tier, at any rate. He's just too easily dominated if you can manage to get close up.

Other than those, the list doesn't look too off for now.
 
MntT77 said:
* No way is Viola in the same league as Aeon and Dampierre. Her zoning capabilities and close-range pressure are too good for that. She might not be top tier, but I refuse to believe she's that bad.
Click to expand...
Agree, she is definitely better than aeon,damp and sieg but she still feels weaker than the rest of the mid cast imo. She has amazing potential but we have yet to see someone actually be really good with her imo.

* I personally would say that regular Pyrrha > Omega Pyrrha (not that O.Pyrrha is bad, of course).
Click to expand...
Debatable, imo Omega > Pyrrha, mainly because of her overall better damage output. Pyrrha excels omega in various other aspects though.

* I don't think Nightmare's that good - no better than mid tier, at any rate. He's just too easily dominated if you can manage to get close up.
Click to expand...
I agree that he is easily the worst of the top tier cast but he still strikes me as a better than average char. Would have put him lower if i had made more tiers though. In my eyes he is lower top/upper mid.
 
Lets talk about the punishment spectrum and compare the best punisher, A Pat, to an average-ish punisher, Algol:
The quickest punisher Algol has is FC A, which deals 12 damage and is +8, but can only punish moves that leave Algol in an FC state.
At the same speed, Alpha Patroklos has JF Twister, which combos into itself, dealing 71 damage with high clean hit potential and can be performed standing or crouching.

Damage wise, Alpha deals 591.67% than Algol at -12, can punish at significantly longer range, from any recovery state.

Just a thought for the day. =)
 
In theory he can punish moves that are -12.

But realistically, punishing a move that's -12 with standing JF twister just isn't a good idea, unless you have the hands of god.
 
Shenrei said:
In theory he can punish moves that are -12.

But realistically, punishing a move that's -12 with standing JF twister just isn't a good idea, unless you have the hands of god.
Click to expand...

If you can get off a JF Twister in less than 2 frames it takes to get the complex input, then JF Twister is faster than any other punisher in the game, in theory.

In reality, JF Twister will be as fast as any other 14 frame punisher than a lot of characters have. Punishing a move with -14 or -13 frames with JF Twister isn't really going to happen. At least not very often.


As for Leixia's 6KK punisher. No it doesn't have Pyrrha's or Omega's damage. However, neither Pyrrha or Omega have the same kind of versatility with Leixia's 6KK as they do with their punishers. And I'm pretty certain they're stuck using fewer moves than Leixia uses.
 
Windstar said:
As for Leixia's 6KK punisher. No it doesn't have Pyrrha's or Omega's damage. However, neither Pyrrha or Omega have the same kind of versatility with Leixia's 6KK as they do with their punishers. And I'm pretty certain they're stuck using fewer moves than Leixia uses.
Click to expand...
1) The heck do you mean by "same versatility with Leixia's 6KK"? You mean how it kinda gives her a mixup afterwards? I'm pretty sure Pyrrha and Oprah both get a mix-up off 236B on hit. Leixia only gets a mix-up on hit, too (seeing as how 6KK is unsafe on block).
2) It's not the quantity that matters, it's the quality.
 
Windstar said:
If you can get off a JF Twister in less than 2 frames it takes to get the complex input, then JF Twister is faster than any other punisher in the game, in theory.

In reality, JF Twister will be as fast as any other 14 frame punisher than a lot of characters have. Punishing a move with -14 or -13 frames with JF Twister isn't really going to happen. At least not very often.


As for Leixia's 6KK punisher. No it doesn't have Pyrrha's or Omega's damage. However, neither Pyrrha or Omega have the same kind of versatility with Leixia's 6KK as they do with their punishers. And I'm pretty certain they're stuck using fewer moves than Leixia uses.
Click to expand...
On twister-
I'd say it depends A LOT on the move in question. Second+ hits of strings and moves with long blockstun that can still be punished are MUCH easier to punish even if it's only 12 frames because you can buffer the 214 fairly early(maybe 20 frames +?). If you buffer it right you can realistically get the 12 frame punish. I'm not going to say it's always possible because i'm clearly not good enough to do it reliably, let alone in a tourney match, but I wouldn't be surprised to see higher level players nailing certain 12f punishes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom