To what extent...
- Thread starter Mojo
- Start date
I dont feel its needless, because the comparison is made to another character who actually has poor lows which leave so much to be desired. pointing that out helps puts things in perspective.
top players you ask? well..
"The info about him being weak comes directly from the official SCV guide makers, who have been playing the game for months. Here's their tier list:
SS: Devil Jin
S: Natsu
A: Alpha Patroklos, Pyrrha Omega, Pyrrha, Algol, Cervantes
B: Patroklos, Xiba, Maxi, Ivy, Leixia, Voldo, Tira, Yoshimitsu
C: Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Hilde, Raphael, Ezio, Astaroth
D: Aeon, Dampierre, Z.W.E.I., Viola
E: Siegfried"
I believe its top french players who created this list? same people that worked on the future press guide i assume? the post is somewhere on these forums.
Also EG Floe has voiced his opinion on how he thinks Natsu is top tier on the latest episode of cross counter.
"she has a really tough time against Pyrrha and Mitsu, IMO because they have good normals that can either punish moves or stop her frame traps that normally work on other characters"
I believe this to be true for almost all of the cast, because Pyrrha and Mitsu are both excellent in this department. mindless pressure? they will prevent you from abusing a single move with their own quick and/or evasive moves even at frame advantage. this applies to almost everyone, not just natsu..
dont get me wrong, i dont think natsu is brainless, i just think your point applies to more characters than just natsu, its too general.
and just guards dont only apply to natsu, they work on every single member of the cast, that is the point of just guards, to understand the character so well, to be able to time a JG so that something safe will now become punishable. Again a general statement that applies to the entire cast of characters..
""cheap" or "broken""
I dont feel like Natsu is either cheap or broken, I only think that she does more damage than she should for her risk vs. reward in comparison to the other characters in the game.
"I main Natsu at the moment, and nobody, whether you play her or not, thinks that she's lacking in the damage department. At times, even I feel like her airthrow damages could be tweaked to be a bit lower."
This is where i totally agree with you.
but in the end, who cares? if one doesnt like losing to natsu because they think she is cheap or broken, then just learn to play her and use natsu vs natsu, cant make it more fair than that. If you cant beat them, join em... and learning a new character never hurts.
top players you ask? well..
"The info about him being weak comes directly from the official SCV guide makers, who have been playing the game for months. Here's their tier list:
SS: Devil Jin
S: Natsu
A: Alpha Patroklos, Pyrrha Omega, Pyrrha, Algol, Cervantes
B: Patroklos, Xiba, Maxi, Ivy, Leixia, Voldo, Tira, Yoshimitsu
C: Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Hilde, Raphael, Ezio, Astaroth
D: Aeon, Dampierre, Z.W.E.I., Viola
E: Siegfried"
I believe its top french players who created this list? same people that worked on the future press guide i assume? the post is somewhere on these forums.
Also EG Floe has voiced his opinion on how he thinks Natsu is top tier on the latest episode of cross counter.
"she has a really tough time against Pyrrha and Mitsu, IMO because they have good normals that can either punish moves or stop her frame traps that normally work on other characters"
I believe this to be true for almost all of the cast, because Pyrrha and Mitsu are both excellent in this department. mindless pressure? they will prevent you from abusing a single move with their own quick and/or evasive moves even at frame advantage. this applies to almost everyone, not just natsu..
dont get me wrong, i dont think natsu is brainless, i just think your point applies to more characters than just natsu, its too general.
and just guards dont only apply to natsu, they work on every single member of the cast, that is the point of just guards, to understand the character so well, to be able to time a JG so that something safe will now become punishable. Again a general statement that applies to the entire cast of characters..
""cheap" or "broken""
I dont feel like Natsu is either cheap or broken, I only think that she does more damage than she should for her risk vs. reward in comparison to the other characters in the game.
"I main Natsu at the moment, and nobody, whether you play her or not, thinks that she's lacking in the damage department. At times, even I feel like her airthrow damages could be tweaked to be a bit lower."
This is where i totally agree with you.
but in the end, who cares? if one doesnt like losing to natsu because they think she is cheap or broken, then just learn to play her and use natsu vs natsu, cant make it more fair than that. If you cant beat them, join em... and learning a new character never hurts.
Aeuen
[08] Mercenary
I'm still trying to figure out this mix up.. what mix up?... what low? first off the only low that does any form of damage is 1A, and that we all know is easy to see coming, and about as punishable as it gets... 1k has no range at all, I can be 2 feet away from an opponent and whiff which is ridiculous. 11_77A is ok i guess on paper, slow start up, punishable, but has somewhat of a range.
All I hear anyone ever complain about and call natsu top tier is because she can do damage... christ anyone can kill someone with 2-3 combo's, so thats an invalid point. easy to do? How hard is it to do 3B into a combo with the other characters? we require CH they don't.
Your also forgetting about a very big natsu flaw in character... she has no range, in every single series including sc5, that has yet to change. Everything you mention anything you can mention, always take that into consideration. there is no Risk vs reward that is justifiable in a natsu needing to get into range before we can do anything, anything you throw out outside of our range is safe, we have 0 ways to punish anything outside of our small range.
Now for a discussion purposes, let's say that we are now 6months into the game
1. You are now able to finally block and or punish 2A+B, 4A+B on reaction.
2. You have learned that natsu HAS NO MIX UP Worth a damn so there is no real point in ducking nor impatiently attacking as we have no real Guard break damage (least to my knowledge, compared to some of the other characters), thus making CH's fairly tough to grab.
3. You have now learned that natsu has no string variation and they all end with a decent sized negative frame so all you have to do is just sit tight and wait till the end of ANY string to gain an advantage.
4. You have now finally realized how to use your damn range that HAS GOT TO BE bigger then Natsu's
5. You have now realized that your -13's or so are barely even punishable by a natsu let alone it takes time for her to use that time to dash in if we are outside of your range, taking away alot of your weaknesses outside of our range...
Now what? If natsu is so great and such high reward for low risk, you tell me what to do in this situation for low risk high reward?, this is fundamental's that has not changed since day 1 of sc5. You are taking a "tier" list that has been made before the game has even come out and was tested by many, it only useful as a reference to start for people looking for the "supposed" broke character, everything will change in due time maybe that 6month mark? :) who knows... (Let's not forget a good amount of players have already been doing all of the above, making things difficult)
All I hear anyone ever complain about and call natsu top tier is because she can do damage... christ anyone can kill someone with 2-3 combo's, so thats an invalid point. easy to do? How hard is it to do 3B into a combo with the other characters? we require CH they don't.
Your also forgetting about a very big natsu flaw in character... she has no range, in every single series including sc5, that has yet to change. Everything you mention anything you can mention, always take that into consideration. there is no Risk vs reward that is justifiable in a natsu needing to get into range before we can do anything, anything you throw out outside of our range is safe, we have 0 ways to punish anything outside of our small range.
Now for a discussion purposes, let's say that we are now 6months into the game
1. You are now able to finally block and or punish 2A+B, 4A+B on reaction.
2. You have learned that natsu HAS NO MIX UP Worth a damn so there is no real point in ducking nor impatiently attacking as we have no real Guard break damage (least to my knowledge, compared to some of the other characters), thus making CH's fairly tough to grab.
3. You have now learned that natsu has no string variation and they all end with a decent sized negative frame so all you have to do is just sit tight and wait till the end of ANY string to gain an advantage.
4. You have now finally realized how to use your damn range that HAS GOT TO BE bigger then Natsu's
5. You have now realized that your -13's or so are barely even punishable by a natsu let alone it takes time for her to use that time to dash in if we are outside of your range, taking away alot of your weaknesses outside of our range...
Now what? If natsu is so great and such high reward for low risk, you tell me what to do in this situation for low risk high reward?, this is fundamental's that has not changed since day 1 of sc5. You are taking a "tier" list that has been made before the game has even come out and was tested by many, it only useful as a reference to start for people looking for the "supposed" broke character, everything will change in due time maybe that 6month mark? :) who knows... (Let's not forget a good amount of players have already been doing all of the above, making things difficult)
I don't know guys, if something like 60% of the guys I fight online use Natsu out of 20 and something characters wouldn't that mean something?
Also, I usually lose to Natsu half the times i fight her, or even more, no matter what character I pick. You may say "well you just don't know how to fight her", but hey, after fighting dozens of them don't you think that perhaps the problem isn't me (or whoever) not knowing Natsu moveset enough?
Just sharing my 2 cents.
Also, I usually lose to Natsu half the times i fight her, or even more, no matter what character I pick. You may say "well you just don't know how to fight her", but hey, after fighting dozens of them don't you think that perhaps the problem isn't me (or whoever) not knowing Natsu moveset enough?
Just sharing my 2 cents.
ThaGuy
[08] Mercenary
Learn to react faster to obvious things and don't tech on knockdown against Natsu = You are welcome.
Her mixup is super basic compared to SC4 Taki where she could POS Sidestep. People forget that 2A is still good against her when you know she's POS. What is she going to do to punish your 2A hard? PO K? PO A? Hover? Lol.
She's good only against people who aren't familiar with her. Once people figure her out in the future, her damage will be justified because she won't be getting any free hits or land any gimmicky hovers like they do against online players.
Her mixup is super basic compared to SC4 Taki where she could POS Sidestep. People forget that 2A is still good against her when you know she's POS. What is she going to do to punish your 2A hard? PO K? PO A? Hover? Lol.
She's good only against people who aren't familiar with her. Once people figure her out in the future, her damage will be justified because she won't be getting any free hits or land any gimmicky hovers like they do against online players.
"All I hear anyone ever complain about and call natsu top tier is because she can do damage... christ anyone can kill someone with 2-3 combo's, so thats an invalid point. easy to do? How hard is it to do 3B into a combo with the other characters? we require CH they don't."
show me a way to kill a character with 3B using zwei in 3 combos, set the dummy to air-tech and prove your point
oh wait.. you cant, so what characters CAN kill in 3 combos from a 3b starter with air techs? please share, id like to see.
"we require CH, they dont" oh really? have you tried this combo with Natsu yet?
MID
POS HOV B(stuns), wr K, 6A+B4, A6, 3KKK, WC A+B, 4A+B (over 100 dmg)
LOW
POS HOV A(1 hit = stuns) , 6A+B4, A6, 3KKK, WC A+B, 4A+B (does around 80-90 dmg)
breaks 100 damage, meterless, with no counter-hit required.
show me a way to kill a character with 3B using zwei in 3 combos, set the dummy to air-tech and prove your point
oh wait.. you cant, so what characters CAN kill in 3 combos from a 3b starter with air techs? please share, id like to see.
"we require CH, they dont" oh really? have you tried this combo with Natsu yet?
MID
POS HOV B(stuns), wr K, 6A+B4, A6, 3KKK, WC A+B, 4A+B (over 100 dmg)
LOW
POS HOV A(1 hit = stuns) , 6A+B4, A6, 3KKK, WC A+B, 4A+B (does around 80-90 dmg)
breaks 100 damage, meterless, with no counter-hit required.
frost
[08] Mercenary
Actually, you don't even need 2A, she can't PO sidestep anyway...
Now, if HO is done from a position that allows the stance and mixup to come out safely (like in oki), then it's a different story. We are, however, back to square one in that scenario. Natsu still has to knock you down in order for that to happen. It's possible, but it's more difficult because of the reasons stated by Aeuen.
PO HOV A_B is incredibly slow if done from neutral positioning (untrained, both characters standing). Characters with anti-air options (Cervy, Natsu, Asta, DJ) can just pop her out of the air easily. No anticipation required. The rest of the cast can jump back or mash BB to interrupt the transition into HO, which interrupts most of her options when she's in PO.
Now, if HO is done from a position that allows the stance and mixup to come out safely (like in oki), then it's a different story. We are, however, back to square one in that scenario. Natsu still has to knock you down in order for that to happen. It's possible, but it's more difficult because of the reasons stated by Aeuen.
If u cant react on a 50 frame mixup stop playing figthing games on competive level .You are not for them.
LOL u dont even know your char....before saying staff like " QQ ,nurf , too much damage and OP, top tier " learn at least ur char please. (look the combo that follows)
*- zwei: 66A+B , 4A+B (83 dmg)
*- life bar is at 240.....yea u are right it is an overkill.
make tha math yourself..!!
And dont brag that it is not 3B.... every char has his own combo starters but the point is that all can kill u in 3 combos.
Nofacekill3r
[11] Champion
I'm usually the first to complain, but I think it's a little premature to jump on the Natsu hate train. She still suffers vs. solid defense and spacing (weak grabs, meh guard crush game) and she needs counter hits or meter to do her high damage combos.
you have no idea that i play natsu as well as zwei as well as yoshimitsu as well as.. shall i continue?
"If u cant react on a 50 frame mixup stop playing figthing games on competive level .You are not for them."
what a stupid ass thing to say, yes of course you and everyone else can react to 50 frame raw mix-ups, now do it on okizeme between hov A and hov B. between great frame-traps, great unblockables and decent launchers and knockdowns you cant find a way to set this up? blasphemy.
you're an idiot, nobody said anything about 66a+b. I am well aware that 66a+b in 4a+b does over 80dmg.. now do it with 3b, like i previously stated, which someone says 3b into blah blah 3 times = victory.
I never ASKED for a nerf, im stating my opinion, i dont think its OVER POWERED(as in unbeatable or unfair), i just think that the damage output is skewed. why are people so ignorant and jump to conclusions, leave out details (such as 3b)? are you really this ignorant?
Djangoknight
[10] Knight
PO K tech jumps u can't use 2A on it...
Aeuen
[08] Mercenary
"I don't know guys, if something like 60% of the guys I fight online use Natsu out of 20 and something characters wouldn't that mean something?
Also, I usually lose to Natsu half the times i fight her, or even more, no matter what character I pick. You may say "well you just don't know how to fight her", but hey, after fighting dozens of them don't you think that perhaps the problem isn't me (or whoever) not knowing Natsu moveset enough?
Just sharing my 2 cents." - Mage
The general pub means absolutely nothing (no offense) 90% of the online general pub can play natsu does not mean one thing. How many natsu players do you actually see winning tournaments, how many taki players have ever won at tournaments through out the course of every single series? Natsu still has the same exact fundalmental weaknesses if not more now then ever, so they just upped the damage on a few things that hit extremely easily vs the pub, but vs any high end players i'm not sure how useful it'll be...
sahmehnov I'm not sure if you have played the game on a competitive level, but does not seem like you are able to see outside the box. Might be helpful if you played vs people that played the game on a competitive level, not to sound rude but seems like you are lacking competitive play? who knows. Go look up every tournament played you don't see top 5 being flooded with natsu, lucky to even see 1 natsu player actually win a decent sized major tournament. Results don't lie.
Also, I usually lose to Natsu half the times i fight her, or even more, no matter what character I pick. You may say "well you just don't know how to fight her", but hey, after fighting dozens of them don't you think that perhaps the problem isn't me (or whoever) not knowing Natsu moveset enough?
Just sharing my 2 cents." - Mage
The general pub means absolutely nothing (no offense) 90% of the online general pub can play natsu does not mean one thing. How many natsu players do you actually see winning tournaments, how many taki players have ever won at tournaments through out the course of every single series? Natsu still has the same exact fundalmental weaknesses if not more now then ever, so they just upped the damage on a few things that hit extremely easily vs the pub, but vs any high end players i'm not sure how useful it'll be...
sahmehnov I'm not sure if you have played the game on a competitive level, but does not seem like you are able to see outside the box. Might be helpful if you played vs people that played the game on a competitive level, not to sound rude but seems like you are lacking competitive play? who knows. Go look up every tournament played you don't see top 5 being flooded with natsu, lucky to even see 1 natsu player actually win a decent sized major tournament. Results don't lie.
Lol it's Mege, not Mage, but nevermind that, made me laugh! :)
Anyway, I get your point, and can't reply in anyway without going on the subjective side.
I guess time will tell!
winning tournaments is not done by characters, but by players. go tell the world that wesker cannot be beat by ironfist because of tier lists in marvel, and great players will prove you wrong. furthermore, how many characters are actually seen at your local tournaments? do you see the entire cast of characters, or do you see a large portion not being represented? what majors have occurred thus far?
thus far "every tournament" played with results posted for SC5 on these forums, natsu has made top 8, 4 times, and top 2, twice. not a bad showing in my opinion, but realistically that doesnt translate to her damage output, or her mechanics as a character, its falls on the player.
you have basically been weeping and crying that the damage is justified because YOU cannot find a way to land a hit or a knockdown against better players.
Neoshinji
[09] Warrior
I have played the SC2, 3, 3AE , and 4 at a competitive level. This is probably the strongest version of taki/natsu to date. People who have played her competitively with her past tools and shortcomings will be fine getting in there and doing damage in SC5. She isn't broken... even if she was only a handful up people can utilize that so called "broken" strat properly.
We've worked harder for less damage in the past... don't really care one way or the other if she is upper or bottom tier since none of that matters when we are in a tournament.
We've worked harder for less damage in the past... don't really care one way or the other if she is upper or bottom tier since none of that matters when we are in a tournament.
ThaGuy
[08] Mercenary
Of course everyone knows that. However, what follow ups can she get off that? What combos can she get off a PO K? Nothing.
I'd rather take that damage than eating her other meaty combos ALL DAY LONG.
Neoshinji
[09] Warrior
Who cares if you can't get a combo off of PO K. You managed to counter your opponent's 2A. You don't have to mash out your next attack you know. You can back dash/8 WR them to wait for them to whiff or see what they do. Playing Natsu/Taki requires you to take the time to read your opponent properly since your window for opportunity/punish is less than for other characters.
A lot of people don't like this string but I really like AA6. This doesn't give you advantage on hit or block for that matter. But after they eat a couple AABs they start to wait for the AAB to punish. AA6 opens up Natsu's throw game, WS A setups, FC K setups. Instant PO B setups ect... Or just wait and block your opponent's 3B to AA them back .
Most of Natsu's moves play a role one way or another its good to mix it up tempo wise and keep your opponent on their toes.
TaXi
[09] Warrior
TRUTH
ThaGuy
[08] Mercenary
The same could be said for the other character, actually the situation you just laid out for me is something Natsu would not prefer. You don't want her all up on your ass, you want to keep her at a neutral game which she is very mediocre at compared to other characters. Lemme ask you what situation does a Natsu player prefer: Pressure/Oki or Spacing/Poking? Exactly my point.
PO K to reset the situation and return to a neutral game? Fine by me if I'm the other guy.
If I'm playing a character like Pyrrha or like Asta, I would WANT the situation to reset, because you're effectively putting me in a situation I excel in: Out of my face and back to spacing/waiting to punish you.
Neoshinji
[09] Warrior
If you guessed wrong once then why wouldn't you guess wrong again? A reset is a reset.
I actually excel at being mid range and spacing with taki/natsu. Not all Natsu players are come from the spammy online world haha.
So it still comes down to who guesses right and I am comfortable with those odds.
I actually excel at being mid range and spacing with taki/natsu. Not all Natsu players are come from the spammy online world haha.
So it still comes down to who guesses right and I am comfortable with those odds.