Under-used moves

Dr. Hates

Jerk.
It's quiet in here. To fix that, I'd like to start a discussion about Cervantes' tools beyond things like 1AB and 3B.

I've been growing increasingly fond of 1BB. It's safe if you do both, and it's NC. Once you establish it, it opens up 1B->throw or 1B->1AB.

What about you guys? What marginal stuff do you think I should I be incorporating more into my game?
 

franman

[13] Hero
For me I would use 22_88K as part of a step game and perhaps against 2A whores. Despite low damage it tracks knocks down on CH (good for close RO edge and wall splat combo).
 

docvizzo

[14] Master
I use exactly the same 1BB Setups. 1BB mixup with 1B~1AB is a nice reaction trap. ch fisher...

Also 4B+K >>>Maxi. So amazing move in certain matchups. This move has amazing evading potential and leaves your opponent for a nice mixup, since + a lot (6??) on Hit. Also Yoshi is doomed against this move.

I try to use more 44A. You can still do the 8wayrun version from running, i just input 663214A, this way you can do it from forward running. But its a bit slow, i have trouble landing it, but i'll try more.
 

ShinJin

[09] Warrior
i quite like 6A, it's kinda like mitsu's 6B8 just not as good. when it connects they're side turned and 1AB is pretty much free.
 
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Windstar

[13] Hero
Been using 1BB a lot since that's what usually comes out if I fail to get iGDR. Also like using 4B+K, though its linear and can be stepped.

Started using 4A. Its slow, hits high, but for some reason it has some evasive properties that make it good for stopping rushdown or opponents circling you. Seems like you could use it as a post 33B mix-up over 44B if your opponent decides to step.

8A+B I've tried to work into. It has a tech crouch during start-up, plus a just frame for a GDR. When you land both hits, it won't do as much damage as other GDR attacks, but it seems rather useful if you can get it to work.

I've seen some players use 2B+K's quake stun. Personally, it seems rather gimmicky, but there might be some success with it.

22K has definitely had a lot more success with me. More than 22AA or 22B. So I would try using it.

bA seems like it would be rather useful as well. Players I've faced tend to fear the GI effect afterward and basically sit there, feeling threatened. Nice thing about it, is that it stops nearly all 14 frame punishers like Alpha's FC3aB, Pyrrha and Omega's 236Bs, and Pat's 236B as well.
 

ShinJin

[09] Warrior
how does the JF gdr work after 8A+B work?, does it just come out right away without the charge?.
 

K0rN_b4LL

[14] Master
how does the JF gdr work after 8A+B work?, does it just come out right away without the charge?.
If you time it right it does. You gotta land the 4B right as his feet hit the ground (I think, I can't do it consistently even in training) so it is a real pain to do.
 

ShinJin

[09] Warrior
ah ok i see now, it actually kinda sucks, you get less damage if you do the JF one because it seems to put you BT 90% of the time. i guess it's good on block, well, not good, but better then a empty DC.
 

K0rN_b4LL

[14] Master
I think its only good if you wiff the 8A+B and they try to punish. Once they learn about it it won't do much.
 

franman

[13] Hero
Also 4B+K >>>Maxi. So amazing move in certain matchups. This move has amazing evading potential and leaves your opponent for a nice mixup, since + a lot (6??) on Hit. Also Yoshi is doomed against this move.
Can you plz elaborate on situations to use 4B+K in the [matchup]vs. Maxi and [matchup]vs. Yoshi thread.

More than happy to see more of your input on this.
 

Cypher

[09] Warrior
I guess I'll throw in my two-cents about the moves I've been using that have been paying good dividends. This is a great idea for a thread, and a good mental excercise to go from knowing your character to knowing you character. I'd recently been trying really hard to expand my repertoire of moves while playing online. In order of usefulness, here's what I found that stuck:

Gentle Wave

Well, 6A definitely get's a +1 from me, I've already talked about it in the General Q+A/Discussion thread, but the gist is that any move that leaves you +8 on hit, along with stopping your opponent from being able to sidestep (due to leaving him/her in a BT state on hit) deserves a spot in your arsenal. It's only -2 on block, allowing you to snag a followup aB counterhit when you think you've got a read on you opponent, and at i15 startup it clearly becomes a phenomenal poke as far as High-hitting moves are concerned (so, not in the Pyrrha matchup).

Killer X Crawler (also Galleon Sinker)

Another move I've found myself getting a ton of mileage from online recently is 9B+K. It's safe-ish, puts you in a great Oki situation on hit (it also looks badass as hell on hit). It basically a giant, jumping 2A+B. You know how you use a normal 2A+B to stop you opponent rolling all over the play once you've knocked them down? You can use 9B+K in a similar way, after grounding your opponent with attacks that leave him/her at a distance, such as your back throw (although gimmicking with a fully charged 2B+K often works in these situations as well). It can also act as a great long-range whiff punisher when the super-high tech-jump comes in handy (it'll jump over straight-thrusting Mids and horizontal Mids, whereas iGDR will run right into them). I sometimes use it when I'm lazy and just want get straight from far-range to close-range (like if I'm fighting Nightmare) but in such situations 44K is definitely a much better choice due to it being way safer (although not as step-track-y). The fact that it bursts guard as fast as Riot Storm (33_99B) bursts guard is just icing on the cake.

Surprise Wave

It's a bit out-of-order, since I don't actually find it that useful, but this is where bA fits in the discussion. Hitting with bA gives you a guaranteed 3B (or iGDR) on hit. 48 damage is nothing to scoff at, but I find that the situation you'd use a i18 High attack with such short range in (when you and your opponent are in close and taking turns throwing attacks at each other) is one where opponents are just as likely to toss out a fast AA or 2A as they are to throw a vertical at you, so the GI never really does it's job as far as I'm concerned. I still use it when I've figured out my opponent some, but I'd still rather be poking with 6A or 3K in that situation (or just not playing the poking game at all). All the kids with quick super-great punishes, like Pyrrha or Alpha, probably won't be using those punishes after blocking a single, quick high attack anyways (unless they're just throwing those punishes after every single block, in which case you should punish the shit out of them for not knowing their opponent's frame data).

Anchor Side Kick, Dishonest Wave

The aGI moves that I do get good mileage from are 22_88K, and 33_99A. The 'Anchor Side Kick' comes in pretty handy, but only in certain matchups, in the neutral game. Specifically when you and your opponent are both stepping around away from each other, each looking to get into close range but only with what you/your opponent feel is an advantageous situation. Your opponent is very likely to use a horizontal attack in this situation, and after you've played him/her a few times, you'll get a really good feel for when to use Anchor Side Kick to either be a safe poke after closing the distance, or be your ticket to being in close with your opponent flat on his or her ass.

The aGI in 'Dishonest Wave' is one I similarly use in the approaching-each-other neutral game, but instead of using quick-step so much that I know my opponent is going horizontal, it's for when I haven't been stepping at all and I'm pretty sure my opponent and are are going going to run at each other and press a button. When I'm sure that button is B, it's time to hop forward with a quick 669A to slap their sword out of the air and knock them flat on their ass. Of course, if the attack never comes, you still get a step-catching High with great range, essentially a 66A that bursts guard a bit faster while being just as safe on block.

Genocidal Culverin

40 frames is a slow startup, except when your attack reaches all the way across the level! Initially, I only used 6B+K to punish people for being idiots and mashing buttons while accross the level (and comboing two CEs after this is pretty great) but the real strength of this move is in the neutral game when you've got tons of distance. Shooting the pistol at your opponent and missing (from a safe distance) can really make him/her feel like it's time to take the initiative and run in recklessly. This move recovers pretty darn fast though, and you'll be ablto to start controlling the space right in from of you just before your opponent gets there, allowing you to start pressuring or even get a surprisingly reliable counterhit/aGI if you've downloaded your opponent properly. It's a gimmick, and one that won't last you more than once, but it's still rather rewarding to see how drastically a defensive opponent's brain will change gears once you've given them an "opening".

Gale Slash

What's that? You've got your opponent standing up with his back to the edge of the ring? That's great! You're probably about to try and mix him/her up on wakeup between your A throw, your 3B launcher, and maybe even something loopy that probably won't work like the low-hitting 11_77K. Well did you know that launcher is -13 on block? Why not give yourself one whole extra frame by using 1BB instead of 3B? It breaks guard faster, and will even give you a wall-splat if that hole I was describing is actually a wall. Mixing up 1BB with 1B.1AB is actually pretty clever, and I think I'll start doing it myself, it's sounds pretty dope!

Tornado Slice

Ringing your opponent out because their back is to the edge is great. You know what else is great? Ringing your opponent out because edge was to your left! Or to your opponent's right. Whatever, they're the same. I consider Cervates's 11_44_77A to be, spiritually, the horizontal version of his 33_99B, in that it's just as slow and just as safe (okay, so it's i28 instead of i27 and -6 instead of -3, but you get the picture). Both attacks go a long way towards bursting your opponent's guard, and both look badass as hell. This move comes out slower, but it has the same range as Cervates's 66A (minus the forward movement from the 66) and controls the space in front of you for longer because the two swings are slightly staggered one after the other. Sure, 4A will knock your opponent just as far in the same direction, and even has slightly better range, but it doesn't hit Mid now does it? I've gotten a surprising number or ringouts with the ring edge to my left using this move (I throw on wakeup too much, so my opponents duck on wakeup rather often, especially when they feel safer because the ring edge isn't to their backs). I've even successfully used it in the neutral game while we're quick-stepping around each other, as the Mid hit on this move works wonders against characters that have good tech-crouching options on approach (I'm looking at you, Pyrrha and Natsu).

Submerged Harpoon

The f*ck!?!? Cervantes's 11_77B is probably his worst move! Slow startup, super-punishable, completely linear, etc. Why would I ever use this? Because sometimes you're at the every end of a round, you've got your opponent on the ground in front of you, and you know that he/she is going to wake up holding G. This move is supposedly special because it's a low which gives you advantage on hit (+4, if you're wondering), which is technically a pretty rare property, but the real meat-and-potatoes comes from the fact that it can close out a round because it's a low that does more than 20 damage. That's right, it won't get scaled down by the guts system (the thing that makes your 20-damage-or-less attacks do half their damage when your opponent is low in life). Okay, fine, so 1K also does more than 20 damage, but it's super-telegraphed, while this attack is slow, but just doesn't look like a low during it's animation (and nobody ever uses it, so your opponent probably won't react to it). It's really not good for much, but I've closed out a few rounds with it, so I figured it was worth including in this list.

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So... thoughts? Other moves I'm looking at are 4B+K, 11_77K, 4BK, and 4aB, so I'd appreciate any research anybody has done on those guys. I'm trying to add 6A+B, 3K, and 9(B+K) in as well, but I think we already know why those moves are kinda great :-P
 

Heisenberg

[08] Mercenary
This is a nice thread, I'm happy to see it up.

4B+K is a great move in the right situation/matchup due to it being a tech crouching, sidestepping move, but the crouch and step are both quite small so you ofter have to be careful with timing. Unsure about Maxi since he confuses me but I can confirm that this move gives Yoshi a lot of trouble and it is so easy to apply against him! Also I didn't know it had all that advantage on hit, that is useful to know.

6A is brilliant! Cervantes can often struggle with a lack of good frames so this move is so good for maintaining a good frames based offense. Also it leaves them sideturned! They can't even move! I love love LOVE 1A:B after hitting with 6A.

bA has it's uses, the GI window is enough to catch many popular punish moves on block. However, my favourite use is 3B, bA as it rings out/wallsplats very nicely to the left. This works from any range, but from max 3B range you need a very light tap of 6 first, just enough to move forward ever so slightly.

44A could be good but it is so slow! I find it hard to use in most cases, but I really like mixing it up with 22AA on an opponent's wakeup since the startup of those two moves are so similar. Also, depending on the character, free CE on hit! (you have to be fast)

I'd like to hear a lot more about two moves in particular, 9B+K and 44K, from people that use them a lot. 44K because I know there is potential for great setups there, maybe for BT.
As for 9B+K, has anyone else noticed how much meter it gives you?? Its as much as a Patroklos 236K and that move totally changes his game due to the meter gain, just take a look at the pat SA to see what I mean. Cervantes builds meter OK but has so much use for it, if we could discover more ways of hitting this move it could make him even stronger.
 

Windstar

[13] Hero
how does the JF gdr work after 8A+B work?, does it just come out right away without the charge?.

Really? So far, I've found that when you connect 8A+B > 4B (JF or no) > 2A+B you end up with about 80-ish damage. Its not bad considering iGDRx2 > 2A+B ends up around 90-ish damage.
 

docvizzo

[14] Master
Im starting to really like 8A. 25 DMG, turns opponent to BT, evades throws, lows and only -2 on Block (!!!) and +8 on Hit.

Together with i11 aB that means you cant be attacked after this one. Im trying to use this the same way Lolo used Yoshis 8K in SC4, just as a defensive option when i expect throws etc.
Lets see if i can include this into my repertoire of annoyance...