Use for A+K?

i see where your at more now k , well its not so much that of a SG move supposed to Auto GI'ng attacks, it helps a little though on the SG but not very much..and the flash itself works better from either hit frames/Auto GI frames.
 
Against Taki's WR AAA it think it is. GI's the last A.. will test to find out more!

Lizzy's 3A if u anticipate his interupts.
 
Sidestep at the beginning of a match (especially against Seong Mi-Na), when the opponent tries to kill your step with a long-range horizontal (like Asta's A+B) use A+K to parry them, you do get advantage off the parry, 66B or 4K follow-up is recommended depending on range, but the best thing to do is dash in and guard or dash in for a mixup depending on the opponent's mindset when they see you dash toward them...
 
While your enthusiasm is appreciated, what you're advising is highly situational. There are better options at the start of a match than trying to get an aGI from A+K. As I mentioned before in this thread, A+K gives crap damage and the aGI gives crap frames. A GI leaves you in a much better position. At least from a GI you get a "free" 3B or post-GI mix-ups.
 
A+K on JI however, gives some good frames ~lol...
You could say that about most of the posts in here Hajime, and it's not the damage I'm after, it's A+K-GI, bA that I want... Using it at close range is probably best because of that, but GI's are way faster and give more potential advantage, I took apart the GI game in SC4 and found some pretty interesting things, some of which probably isn't on 8WR yet... I'll try and tackle JI's next, but it'll definately take longer...
 
I guess I can't help but knock what I feel is somewhat useless or useless in Yoshi's arsenal. As a competitive player and considering Yoshi has such a deep move list, I can't help but separate what I believe is the "good" from the "bad." People who do thorough research are always appreciated (i.e. Lags, Suirad, etc.), but let's look at some of Yoshi's less used moves for what they are (i.e. A+K, A+B, 1A JFs, etc.)... crap!
 
If i may gentlemen...


IMO, flash(a+k)..can be used aggressive in certain match ups, and would say less than more in that aspect, slower/bigger characters are THE easiest to flash against(proly a given and should be known if not known), also slow paced characters with a meaty amount of range(but fast in close attacks) are good to use against as well, and even sometimes against those quick moves as well at point blank range... but you NEED to know those match ups/move sets which is also very imprortant. Example of a character you def do not want to do this to is Hilde(unless its a non charging move Hilde which is very rare anyways), and ones you can is kilik/mina/Algol(the non bubble spamming kind) ..and if it is a bubble spamming Algol than there are "other" ways around that for Yoshi, Hajime/others have posted a few of those things around here somewhere too...

Sorry i didnt get to deep into it but, if you read and practice up you'll see when/where/who you can apply it against with good results..just a small piece of advice though..dont get too flash happy regardless!!
 
JustKill: Maybe if Yoshi had his SC2 flash. In SCIV, there are so many better options than flash. Flash does shit for damage, has terrible range, gives no follow-ups on hit, and doesn't really give you much on GI.

Flash does NOT kill Algol's bubble unless you're PERFECTLY positioned, meaning it's highly, highly situational. This is because Yoshi steps slightly to his right when he does flash, meaning you can't be head on with the bubbles.

If you want to convince me otherwise, tell me a situation where flash trumps any other move. The only specific example I can think of is Lolo's: Block 11A and RCC A+K beats everything. Silly, but it works and is a decent use of it. There are no "general" situations in which flash is useful.
 
JustKill said:
and ones you can is kilik/mina/Algol(the non bubble spamming kind) ..and if it is a bubble spamming Algol than there are "other" ways around that for Yoshi
Click to expand...


Hajime... when did i say anything about using flash against a bubble spamming Algol in this part of my post above which i quoted myself^^??...i said NON bubble spamming Algol, followed by "and if it is a bubble spamming Algol there are "other" ways around that for Yoshi"...and mentioned your name for credit in that area.

But if your going that route your asking for trouble vs him..hence use on NON bubble spamming Algols...


So basically you just put words into my mouth that i never said to begin with and this is to be truth because you followed up with in your post "If you want to convince me otherwise" , implying i said what you say i said, but i never actually said...maybe non intentional?


but if you still want me to "convince" you otherwise as far as where it can be applied to some match ups, i would love to... but my ps3 YLOD'd me a few weeks back and is impossible for me to do atm :( and I'm not too great with vid capping either so i would need a bit of time/someone to cap/upload since i am not to good at it...so maybe someone will step up to the plate before i get the chance to prove its usefulness...


Also its not a spamming move to begin with(which i pretty much ended my previous post with), but there are strings and attacks that are def slow enough to the eye and react with a flash even if its only to gain advantage(even if its only a bit of advantage)...if its in Yoshi's favor, its always better to take it than just leave it sitting there.

EDIT: sorry to have covered my tracks but, i think you misread pretty much everything i posted.
 
Justkill:

My apologies. I did misread the Algol non-bubble spammy thing. When would you use it against a non-bubble spamming Algol, though? In what situations is A+K > X move?

You did say the move can be used "aggressively" in some matches. You also said "less than more" which is a direct contradiction. Then you specified characters, so I only assumed at this point that you felt A+K was potent enough to use it often. Maybe the word "spam" was too strong, but that was the impression I was getting.

You did not mention any other specific instances in which A+K > any other move. Vid cap isn't necessary. Specify a common situation that happens in a match-up and why you would use A+K over something else.
 
NP Hajime...


Aggressively as in really don't need to apply very little in like you mentioned the 11A(blocked) into flash scenario..there are more areas to use it(like in the match ups i mentioned) more than say a specific area like of which can become predictable if used often i suppose( like 11a blocked into flash).. but lets say for an example of what i mean...an area when an opponent would tech into an area that gives no tech trap for Yoshi, but a powerful move to keep them in check, basically saying, hey don't tech into this and try hitting me because you will get flashed(the hitting version not the auto gi version) which will put fear and keep them in check at all times in this situation, giving Yoshi way more use of all his other main attacks/mix-ups..which from what I've seen is more often than none(meaning they get up and try to attack him if they think they can and not get caught in a tech trap that isn't available) an attack that comes to mind is voldo 66:b/66b variation or even a throw which i see very often in many matches from top voldos...

though i wonder why nobody takes advantage of this..


a few more that can be seen on reaction/ and or at close range, examples...

Kilik: 4+a(i think this is the notation, could be 4+b not sure), but he goes to the side with the Bo holding it under his right arm and comes from the left of kilik and hits inward from outwards to the opponents right side9which is great for yoshi coz that is the direction he flashes into(his right side)..

Astaroth: ummm..hehe, pretty much anything he does will get flashed no doubt from point blank range...i rarely fear at all now being in his face with Yoshi just for this reason alone.

mina: her pogo hop move, flash that shit mid air and get a free 44bB/cancel variations or suicide if they tech into it..or mix it up for another A+K if she tries to do anything to him post A+K(the non GI version)..

i am to believe this is the best version of what can come from the flash..the auto GI version is ok, because you don't gain as much advantage from the auto GI version like he does with the attack version..no ps3 in front of me atm..when i pick up my new one i will test a lil' more as my memory is a bit stale from not playing for a bit.

Again.. the thing is nobody takes that advantage with him that way, and they should!, cause we all know you can just switch it up with ex: !MCF/throw too.


"less than more"..meaning, less characters than more characters..but certain match ups as i mentioned.. it can be put to good use..and in those match ups it can be used more often than in other match ups..so no contradiction..just misunderstanding of what i meant.


Some might read this and think I'm a fart head or something stupid, but when i went to EVO it was ALL about Vader for me and for good reason too, but i dropped Yoshi to focus on some payback, and i got it, which maybe i shouldn't have done but did anyways, and all the shit i had running in my head that i knew/know with Yoshi diminished when i got to play a few heads i never played before in my life... and my game was..sour at the time and not focused enough which i should have kept at..i will drop many more areas when you can use it once i get my new PS3 slim!
 
is there any advantages to using A+K over a regular GI, besides the shit damage you get from A+K?
i mean, if you can A+K, you can GI, right?
why not just use GI instead, and go for some old reliable post-GI mixups, and aim for some decent damage?
 
Keep in mind, this is a friendly discussion. My posts sometimes come across aggressive, but I'm stating my position on things. ^_^

JustKill said:
an area when an opponent would tech into an area that gives no tech trap for Yoshi, but a powerful move to keep them in check, basically saying, hey don't tech into this and try hitting me because you will get flashed(the hitting version not the auto gi version) which will put fear and keep them in check at all times in this situation, giving Yoshi way more use of all his other main attacks/mix-ups ..which from what I've seen is more often than none(meaning they get up and try to attack him if they think they can and not get caught in a tech trap that isn't available) an attack that comes to mind is voldo 66:b/66b variation or even a throw which i see very often in many matches from top voldos...
Click to expand...

3A CH fishing, 3B, 2K, 33B, throws, and a myriad of other moves are better if you want to keep your opponent in check. What's to keep them from punishing if you whiff an A+K? How is A+K better than the variety of other moves that either benefit from a CH against an agressive opponent or hit a grounded opponent?

a few more that can be seen on reaction/ and or at close range, examples...

Kilik: 4+a(i think this is the notation, could be 4+b not sure), but he goes to the side with the Bo holding it under his right arm and comes from the left of kilik and hits inward from outwards to the opponents right side9which is great for yoshi coz that is the direction he flashes into(his right side)..
Click to expand...

I'm assuming the close range thing doesn't apply here, because no Kilik in his right mind will use this at close range. Why is A+K superior to a GI in this situation? If you can react to it, why not just use 33B, 11A, or 214A? Furthermore, 9B+K destroys this move, along with a number of other Kilik moves. There are far superior options to A+K here.

Astaroth: ummm..hehe, pretty much anything he does will get flashed no doubt from point blank range...i rarely fear at all now being in his face with Yoshi just for this reason alone.
Click to expand...

Yoshi dominates Asta at close range without A+K. Granted, I've never made it a point to try and pressure Asta at close range with A+K, but that's because Asta can't punish Yoshi and has few counters to Yoshi's inside pressure. Exactly in what situations is A+K greater than all of Yoshi's close range options, including things like 33B, throwing, iMCF setups, etc.?

mina: her pogo hop move, flash that shit mid air and get a free 44bB/cancel variations or suicide if they tech into it..or mix it up for another A+K if she tries to do anything to him post A+K(the non GI version)..
Click to expand...

This is not something you A+K on reaction and how many Mina's use this move outside of a combo? Again, why A+K on wakes? It can whiff. There are better options for wakes, always.

Again.. the thing is nobody takes that advantage with him that way, and they should!, cause we all know you can just switch it up with ex: !MCF/throw too.
Click to expand...

A+K doesn't give you a tech trap, it hardly does any damage, and the risk / reward is stupidly skewed in the opponent's favor if you whiff. You're better off throwing out 3B on wakes against every opponent who can't punish it and reap the rewards if they try and attack into it. Kilik, Asty, and Mina can't punish 3B terribly hard, making the risk of throwing out 3B well worth it.

flask said:
is there any advantages to using A+K over a regular GI, besides the shit damage you get from A+K?
Click to expand...

Nope. Not if you're using A+K to GI something. GI > A+K.
 
Well your right..A+K doesn't give tech trap(which again i NEVER said), but when say against a right minded kilik, they are going to use the fastest moves possible to trump the likes of a move like 11a(which is a slow ass move compared to what kilik can use at close range).. the kilik could be using a tech jumping attack, could be something that just goes around it a 2k etc.. and i'll tell ya, if i use that 11a(blocked) into A+K around these parts of the East coast, they will wait for the flash and then punish me BIG TIME for doing something so predictable, and if i use !MCF instead, they simply step it and quick punish my whiffed !MCF(and smart players will block a 3a/ 3b attempt and punish you for it on wakes when they know your going to eat a punish for trying it on them), but about what you say with using 3a/3b.. you can only use 3a/3b stuff so much, cause well, after that your getting punished ...

.. back on topic of A+K, never was it my intention to say its "better" than his other options, but what the heck you gonna use when those things don't work and they know how to counter attack your slower mix-up options?..exactly, this is where an effective A+K will prevail because it shuts down their quick move options at clso range(point bank range), most players will think the fastest thing you can do is !MCF(and they will just lay on the ground knowing your going for it) and that doesn't track for poop but flash can be used in replacement to switch the "in check" factor up a bit when you keep on top of them, or running at them and staying on them in that regard...in other words..keeping it fresh...yet aggressive.

if nobody has noticed by now, characters with decent range moves that cause serious Soul crush/soul gauge/damaging moves that if they were to be used(as they ARE heavily used in High level play/tournaments) hit..THIS is where A+K shines brighter than the sun...

but let me ask this in all seriousness..when will flash whiff at point blank range if they get up into it?..it doesn't,..in fact, it only will whiff if you jump the gun with it and it doesn't touch them..kinda like when you catch them with a throw as they tech, and then mix it later with a ground hitting 3b?(which is giving them a free opportunity to break the throw and take very small damage from a ground hitting 3b..they cannot break a A+K flash if it hits them..they are hit, knocked to the ground and ample amounts of advantage for Yoshi to work with..

I'm sensing that you might be a bit against the move itself(which is completely fine and your choice), but also sensing you could be just afraid to use it where it has full effectiveness of the move itself(non GI version)....

..and to be quite honest here, more than 70% of the time if it is used in this close quarter areas correctly as i mentioned its not going to auto GI them, its going to hit them just like a simple aa slash hits an opponent within its range(s), and the other 30% of the time/use of it becomes the auto GI version 'cause your not at point blank range, and it will only serve only as that because your at ranges that its going to only auto GI and not hit like a normal attack does..this move trumps a crap load of attacks regardless the match up at point blank range...trust me.

Though, you did ask me to give you ANY move that A+K can be used against even as the auto GI version(which i thought you were trying to get at in the 1st place about it being not too useful)..so i did as you asked in that department, and then i decided to add how the non-auto GI version could be used effectively, which as i said is the better of the 2 versions of A+K..

Yes there is no doubt in my mind about GI> A+K, because it is better than A+K auto GI no question(when your opponent is already in standing position), i think its better for "specific" match ups the auto GI version(as i mentioned also) and certain moves that characters have..especially the ones that cause serious SC damage and turn the bar red for an incoming CF, and i mentioned a 2 in 1 scenario that you can apply actually either version to and that was voldos 66:b/66b, its not as much as say a voldo 2A+B will affect the soul gauge but it is almost just as dangerous, and A+K wrecks moves like that right in its tracks when they attempt it from a tech roll(NOT a tech trap like you keep saying).


Halime, your talking about using 3b in a match against asta/mina(<characters i mentioned about using A+K against which is the thread topic), not 3b,..not once... but for the sake of your 3b talk.. sure she can't punish it hard, maybe i don't use 3b vs a mina, or an Asta(in regards to HIGH level play/tournaments), i wont be using moves like that unless its a whiff punish attempt, what good is throwing a 3b against ANY character when they are all ready in standing position and can punish you free at will waiting for you to do it..(regardless of how little the punish damage is)?..none, and if its a charcter that CAN punish you heavy Yoshi is in trouble.. nobody really falls for it like that any more(at least around here they don't), so i ONLY use 3b now as a whiff punish into juggle...only on occasion can i use something like 3a~b but that's it as far as that move goes and its variation.

EDIT: forgot to mention aside from just using 3b as a whiff punisher, but also as a punisher itself if the move can be punished by it.
 
You're not reading properly. If SOPHIE uses 11AA against Yoshi and Yoshi blocks the first hit of 11AA, then you can A+K after blocking the first hit of that string and stop every single version of SOPHIE'S 11AA.

A+K and iMCF both don't hit grounded. You specifically said that you'd use A+K against an aggressive opponent who is getting off the ground. Well, if they're just getting off the ground attacking, a la scrub style, then you can practically throw out anything and score a CH. If they're going to lay on the ground, you force them off the ground with 2K and 3B. These moves "work" and won't whiff. And A+K doesn't hit opponents who don't attack into it. This A+K is not the SC2 A+K.

Yoshi has great ways inside against ranged characters. A+K isn't going to get me in a position where I can rushdown my opponent.

Smart Voldos won't use 66B, because it's punishable. Yoshi gets a free 6K2K. Voldo is also linear as all hell and there's no reason to not step instead of trying to catch him with A+K.

Btw, I only mention 3A because the CH can be hit confirmed. If you don't get the CH, then there's no need to finish it. It also sets up iMCF quite nicely. If you can't hit confirm CH 3A then you're obviously going to be in trouble if you finish the string on block.

You're also missing the entire point of my argument, which is that A+K has shitty risk vs. reward. There are plenty of other risk you can take that can potentially reward you with more damage, strong tech traps, and put you in better wake position than A+K ever can.

Anyways, maybe you should go rep. Yoshi in your area. Prove how great A+K is and get video footage of it working the way you say it does. Then I'll believe you. Until then, I'm done with this discussion and will continue to believe (likely forever) that SCIV Yoshi's A+K is trash.
 
Well....

FYI, i HAVE been rep Yoshi even waaay before using Vader(used Vader like once or twice in the beginning), I'll admit, i used Yoshi from the go of SC4 along side of Mitsu who i no longer used after growing love for Yoshi and what he can do, and it wasn't too pretty for me at that..spent numerous amounts of hours on end training and perfecting him(at least to the style i have grown accustomed to), and have beaten plenty of players here in the east cost with him inside of tourney and out, i have one vid of me using him at a B.O.N.E tourney out here, and it was on a lag monitor..

(which for Yoshi as a character wasn't very good compared to a lot of character spam that could be done with ease in lag), so i didn't win this match, and still at this time i was still in the middle of perfecting him to the way i wanted, i then carried onto beating KDZ for the GTM belt almost directly after one of the B.O.N.E's in NE,(i used PLENTY of A+K vs him) and got very good results, which we both played right down to the T with sweat on our brows,and viewed LIVE by others who continue to place top spots/or have placed, and also beaten OTHER top competitors across the east coast.. which is more than enough credentials for me that i have using Yoshi( the belt, which i then lost to OOF at NEC9 , and at a time NO ONE had a clue about star wars characters)which now one of them(Vader) i also main..

Hajime..I am reading just fine, and i get exactly what your saying, you believe it to be absolute trash, period.. maybe I'm more confident in using it which grants me BETTER results, than the likes of someone who DOESN'T even like the move, and coincidentally doesn't get good results hence thinking its trash.. but in this case, you DO believe it to be absolute trash, and for the record, you say that only a scrub will get hit by it?? , at least in the sense of how i use it anyways?, well, i get results, and they are very good ones at that and NOT against scrubs..i suppose its how its used, and i guess with the way i use it followed by good results(in tourney/casuals), i must be doing something right.

So you mean to tell me(be honest with me) that you NEVER seen a top player use moves while getting off the ground in retaliation? just "scrub style" as you put it??.. well, check this..you mean to tell me you NEVER seen any top players and these characters> Zas's/ Cassies/Sophies/Voldos/Amy's, shoot even Hildes etc... never get off the ground and attack in retaliation??.. i saw TONS of that stuff happening at this years EVO by all these characters all over the place that i mentioned and more...i don't even dare you to call out those players(some of them placed in at least top 6-7 spots) with some of those characters used, and call them scrubs.

Also the 2k/3b thing you mentioned is a given for even a newb Yoshi, i am far beyond that and also think beyond it.. I have taken insult to what you are saying to me as if i don't already know this stuff?..ask around these parts.. I AM the East Coast Yoshi..nobody plays him as well as i do out here, as far as competitiveness goes.

As you can see so far , you have given me a valid argument on MY behalf...

Hajime, I've seen you do !MCF as soon as you get off the ground more than once in vids whether it be a tech roll or just standing right up off the ground(tourney matches at that), and against top players too!.. so with what your argument is saying(which i understand loud and clear) that you seem to think i don't understand/get.. and that only scrubs will fall for it?( at least how i use A+K anyways from your point of view at least), well than, your calling yourself a scrub... which is a TOTAL contradiction right there and compliments of your own words...if you did that to me in a Yoshi vs Yoshi match..i promise you this.. i will A+K you for it!!..why you ask?..because its THE fastest move in ALL of SC4.. i use everything Yoshi has to offer in SC4 Hajime,....EVERYTHING... Now, you may have NOT known this about me as far as Yoshi being my main , so i wont hold it against you if that's the case please accept my humble apology, other than that, i kinda feel insulted with THE character i main mostly, and ONLY in offline surroundings...cause online sucks unfortunately:(

If i make it to EVO(which doesn't look too great for me until at least i get my new apt next month and some cash saved for a nice EVO/Vegas trip).. BUT..if i make it this year, we can MM each other for a "friendly" amount(or none) for lets say..the "better" Yoshi player(for the record of course).. title(at least as far as the U.S. goes)mkay?....and you can see 1st hand of how I play....deal?

EDIT:^^ this is a friendly offer so we can both have a chance at playing each other at EVO next year for a neat title(if i can make it), and maybe i can change your mind about A+K, and who knows, maybe later trade off some info on something else Yoshi has too..and vice versa.
 
Wow, so much drama ^^

IMO A+K is a pretty useless move, sometimes it can surprise an opponent after a blocked 66K for example but I don't think it's that useful, Yoshi has better moves to keep pressure on an opponent. I remember though spending an entire round using nothing BUT A+K against a crappy Astaroth... and I won lol But that'll never work against a good opponent.
 
Furzy..

A+K will work on a low level asta or high level asta no sweat, just need to know what a good/better asta is about 1st and foremost..though, it proly wouldn't make too much difference vs him anyways cause of his body mass size/hit box..he is THE easiest to hit a non auto GI flash on for that reason alone, which is why i no longer fear doing it to him at point blank range(not randomly), but when i KNOW he will try and attack, throw or whatever he tries to do that a good/better Asta will try in this area.
 
And how will you know for sure? A good opponent will mix it up, I think A+K is about as risky as a GI. I'm curious to see how good you use it though! :)
 
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