What character buffs/nerfs would YOU like to see?

[Frayhua]

Snip

I agree that Raph need major adjustments. Nerfing Nightmare makes no sense especially when I read that he should lose NSS b:A because you can't do just frames.

It's the same BS as you wanted A. Pat to have easier inputs here.
http://8wayrun.com/threads/what-character-buffs-nerfs-would-you-like-to-see.18005/page-4#post-679586

And balance is not just balancing one character against another, it's also balancing the individual move sets within themselves so that a few moves don't dominate the whole list (can you say, A-pat anyone?)

You're also saying JFT is his ONLY punish. A. Pat also has i14 - 44B+K[BE], i17 - 1B:B, i22 - FC 3A+B, & i23 - aB. All these combo starters get nearly half life combos meterless or with one BE.

 

[ZER0]

Nightmare: Eliminate the grim stride cancel glitch. This gives NM an unfair safe launcher with great range as well. He really doesn't need this as I feel he's already strong even without this option.

Speed up GS A to closer to where it was in previous games, but shorten the GI window.

reduce the tracking on his 3B, similar to Sieg's lack of tracking on his 3B

Bring back his GS A+B from sc4 with similar 'return damage' properties as Astaroth's 66k BE, but make it very unsafe, like -22 or something. Make it a high risk high reward kind of move.

Reduce the damage of his Ba slide from stance (I forget the name of the stance), and eliminate the JF option as I feel it's not really needed.

Change the recovery on 22A so that the move is no longer safe, make it like -14 or something.

Reduce pushback on 3AA so that more characters can punish it more easily. The pushback on that move is ridiculous to the point that it's almost a safe move.

Speed up 66B but eliminate the advantage on block. I can't remember exactly what it is, But I think it's +2 or +4 on block. Not to mention reduce the guard damage on this move.

An overall reduction across the board in guard gauge damage.

Eliminate the advantage on block on his AgA. It's a fast stepkiller with awesome range, it doesn't need to have advantage on top of it. Change it to -8 on block ( and similarly eliminate the blue flash indicating that it has advantage). It would still be a very good move with these changes. As it exists currently it's a little bit too good IMO. Same thing goes for Sieg's AgA.

damn all these NM nerfs.
GS cancel requires a fair amount of execution to make it safe, not to mention it takes more execution and a read on our part to be able to block 2K's. not to mention you can easily bait it out and step right to avoid it.

Speeding up GS A and shortening the GI window serves no purpose whatsoever Verticals will still get GI'd and gimmicky CH's will still occur if opponent is careless...if we're gonna nerf it on its only good application, at least make it safe.

not sure what say about 3B, the move is risky as is and is punishable up the ass, Sieg at least has legit frametraps and stepkills...if you get hit by this its kinda your fault.

GS A+B served about as much purpose as A+B did in SCIV it'll serve the same purpose in future games if it were to be added...which is essentially none whatsoever, not without extensive changes to make it viable.

NSS b:A, well unless your intention is to give NSS bA the same damage, speed and clean hit properties NSS b:A has...

22A is one of the few actually good, safe, reliable things we have and it's whiff punishable up the ass

3AA, if a massive fucker like Astaroth can punish this, anyone can. Greeks get Pyrrha's AS:B :4, Omega's DNS B:4, Pat's 3B, aPat's EVERYTHING and Raph's 6BB for free

66B is +2, but because NM is so slow is might aswell be -2, any decent 2A can cop NM out of frame-traps.

reduce the Guard damage...is NM gonna be faster and safer on his moves?...doesn't seem like it judging from the above list

agA and iagA both +1 and +2 at tip range, the advantage, again, is almost non-existent as NM is slow

I won't say if I agree with some these or not, but if we're gonna have these nerfs in place we should at least have something else in place to make things a little more balanced and a little more fairer, I wouldn't mind sacrificing a few things if it meant Greeks wouldn't walk all over us so easily...but why not just remove AS:B, JS:B, iST, NS:B and DNS B entirely?

 

[Xyerith]

damn all these NM nerfs.
GS cancel requires a fair amount of execution to make it safe, not to mention it takes more execution and a read on our part to be able to block 2K's. not to mention you can easily bait it out and step right to avoid it.

Speeding up GS A and shortening the GI window serves no purpose whatsoever Verticals will still get GI'd and gimmicky CH's will still occur if opponent is careless...if we're gonna nerf it on its only good application, at least make it safe.

not sure what say about 3B, the move is risky as is and is punishable up the ass, Sieg at least has legit frametraps and stepkills...if you get hit by this its kinda your fault.

GS A+B served about as much purpose as A+B did in SCIV it'll serve the same purpose in future games if it were to be added...which is essentially none whatsoever, not without extensive changes to make it viable.

NSS b:A, well unless your intention is to give NSS bA the same damage, speed and clean hit properties NSS b:A has...

22A is one of the few actually good, safe, reliable things we have and it's whiff punishable up the ass

3AA, if a massive fucker like Astaroth can punish this, anyone can. Greeks get Pyrrha's AS:B :4, Omega's DNS B:4, Pat's 3B, aPat's EVERYTHING and Raph's 6BB for free

66B is +2, but because NM is so slow is might aswell be -2, any decent 2A can cop NM out of frame-traps.

reduce the Guard damage...is NM gonna be faster and safer on his moves?...doesn't seem like it judging from the above list

agA and iagA both +1 and +2 at tip range, the advantage, again, is almost non-existent as NM is slow

I won't say if I agree with some these or not, but if we're gonna have these nerfs in place we should at least have something else in place to make things a little more balanced and a little more fairer, I wouldn't mind sacrificing a few things if it meant Greeks wouldn't walk all over us so easily...but why not just remove AS:B, JS:B, iST, NS:B and DNS B entirely?

Well people who think Natsu and Apat are broken also have a tendency to think Nightmare is, this is 1st month SCV all over again. Being strong does not necessarily equal being broken. Nightmare doesn't need any nerfs, he's fair the way he is. Also I think everyone would be fine with getting their main nerfed if it meant the greeks weren't retarded

 

[ZER0]

Well people who think Natsu and Apat are broken also have a tendency to think Nightmare is, this is 1st month SCV all over again. Being strong does not necessarily equal being broken. Nightmare doesn't need any nerfs, he's fair the way he is. Also I think everyone would be fine with getting their main nerfed if it meant the greeks weren't retarded

I'll be honest while I do think some MU's are bad and some just outright unfair, I've never thought any character being broken in SCV, Natsu is quick and does dmg, but her range is weak, aPat is retarded but has a high learning curve, that's how I see it.
I agree NM doesn't need any nerfs tbh...but he could do with some buffs here and there, but that's just me...also yh everyone would probs give an arm and a leg to make Greek mu less retarded

 

[Withvees]

To nerf greek, would you rather nerf frames or damage?

 

[Paragon049]

I'd honestly rather have a bunch of the cast get buffed rather than the greeks get nerfed a lot. People wouldn't have nearly as big as a problem with them if that were to happen, I think. Apat is the only one I think should be changed significantly (Though Pat needs to have his A+B glitch removed, and Pyrrha should probably have some of her move properties altered a bit).

EDIT: On the topic of NM needing nerfs...lol. Any character that has an unfavorable (4.5-5.5 or worse) MU with half of the cast doesn't need a nerf.

 

[ZOo00OOm]

I think the characters I can't beat should be nerfed.

 

[Slade]

I'd honestly rather have a bunch of the cast get buffed rather than the greeks get nerfed a lot. People wouldn't have nearly as big as a problem with them if that were to happen, I think. Apat is the only one I think should be changed significantly (Though Pat needs to have his A+B glitch removed, and Pyrrha should probably have some of her move properties altered a bit).

Agreed. SC games have been slower with each iteration until SCV bucked the trend*, and it'd be nice to see future updates/games continuing to distance themselves from SC4's sluggish gameplay.

That isn't to say our theoretical Super SCV/SC6 ought to emulate the mechanics of SC1 or SC2 to regain its speed. I've been messing around with SC1 for a while now and while I enjoy the game's speed, it's mostly distributed along a single axis (hit opponent/get hit by opponent). More in the vein of orthogonal win conditions would be welcome progress.

* Once again hammering home the point that it's impossible to please everyone, with SCV's speed-boosting changes having been met with dismay by a worryingly large contingent of players here.

He needs better horizontals, period.

Trying to fix Raphael by giving him better horizontals is like trying to fix him by giving him better launchers.

The character can be done right, he just... hasn't been. Yet. I think the high granularity in his offensive options has a lot to do with it. Something along the lines of Taki's mobile stances and fast-starting, variable strings might fit the style better than runaway and footsies with anemic long-range pokes.

 

[CaptainHook]

Just for the record, the reason for why I would suggest removing NM's B:A is because I feel it's too strong. Being able to do it consistently has nothing to do with it as I regularly get the JF like 80% of the time. Stop assuming a lack of execution just because I wish it to be removed.

Yes, NM is now my main and yet I still feel like he's a little too strong. He can be played in such a way that he's essentially a long range, fast, high damage and relatively safe character. He has 2 step killing mids that are safe (22A and 44A), he has a safe launcher with GS cancel (and whoever said it takes hard execution is full of shit, this glitch is fucking easy). He has some of the best wall damage in the game, good RO game.

I mean fuck, what more do you want? The only thing he lacks is good punishment. And even then, he's got a LONG RANGE i15 horizontal. How many moves in the game are i15 and have that kind of range?

I see too many people with character bias towards characters they use. If people use a mid tier character they say they're low tier, and if people use an arguably broken character they claim that they're balanced. The opposite is true for characters you don't use.

People never want to admit that their character might need some nerfs, in order to justify all their wins as a result of 'pure skill', rather than character strength being the determining factor, and the better you are at this game, the more this difference in strength matters.

No, I don't claim to be an expert, pro, or whatever. But I play this game well enough that tiers are a bigger factor than skill.

In the end it's all subjective and arbitrary.

And yes, I do stand by my statement that the execution on A-pat be severely lessened. If for no other reason than to attract more players to this character. Why on earth would you want to restrict any character to only the very few? Yes I know, if you eliminate his execution requirements than other adjustments must be made in order to accommodate this change. I would never suggest leaving everything as-is except his execution, as that would undoubtedly make him broken. Or how about you simply remove JFT so that you cannot get a ground hit in? (Twister into twister is fucking retarded). Either way, he's piss-poorly designed and PS should be ashamed of themselves. Setsuka from previous games had a much better design and didn't revolve around the same 6 moves.

I respect all your opinions and responses and will consider the other's perspectives, but for the most part I stand by what I said.

But anyway, I'm done here. I won't read any more responses as I feel I'm just beating a dead horse anyway. I've said this all before on other threads anyway. Peace out Y'all.

 

[Party Wolf]

I play a character that is considered "mid tier" and have beaten high and top tier characters. Skill will always be more important than tiers. Tiers only matter when both players are on a similar, yet high, skill level.

P.S. I'm not counting infinites or literally unbeatable strategies when I say this.

 

[ZER0]

I would suggest removing NM's B:A is because I feel it's too strong

I got no clue why you'd want to remove the JF?...I mean it's only real application is in combo use.

He has 2 step killing mids that are safe (22A and 44A),

44A is garbage on range step-killing and on block

(and whoever said it takes hard execution is full of shit, this glitch is fucking easy).

you didn't read what I said:

GS cancel requires a fair amount of execution to make it safe

nothing was said about hard execution, but be my guest, I wanna vids of you blocking 2K's from 33B for days

No, I don't claim to be an expert, pro, or whatever. But I play this game well enough that tiers are a bigger factor than skill

smh I dunno hat to say to this except lol.

But anyway, I'm done here. I won't read any more responses as I feel I'm just beating a dead horse anyway. I've said this all before on other threads anyway. Peace out Y'all

then what was the point of the whole post? the moment someone responds you just jet? most of the nerfs you've suggested are mostly non-issues...instead of nerfing a character why not try and make others stronger to be able to contend, we all know Raph could do with some buffs...just about everyone can cry nerfs for Viola or Greeks till they're blue...but why not try and make characters and moves more viable instead of crying about aPats iST

 

[Slade]

I see too many people with character bias towards characters they use. If people use a mid tier character they say they're low tier, and if people use an arguably broken character they claim that they're balanced. The opposite is true for characters you don't use.

People never want to admit that their character might need some nerfs, in order to justify all their wins as a result of 'pure skill', rather than character strength being the determining factor, and the better you are at this game, the more this difference in strength matters.

No, I don't claim to be an expert, pro, or whatever. But I play this game well enough that tiers are a bigger factor than skill.

In the end it's all subjective and arbitrary.

No, it's just very complex. The game itself is a complex system consisting of multiple classes of components that interact with one another in a variety of ways along multiple axes ("the game") in a deterministic fashion. On top of that there are the players, who, through experience, develop intuition ("get a feel for" how the game works). Then these models of intuition that people have get composed with those of other people, creating a network of individuals who are simultaneously learning from and teaching one another ("the metagame").

It is possible to compute a reasonable approximation of a "correct" tier list based on matchups, but I'd need the data for all 300 matchups, and the result's accuracy would only be as good as that of the matchup data.

I might do a followup post going into more detail about what I have in mind.

One last note:

Setsuka from previous games had a much better design and didn't revolve around the same 6 moves.

Setsuka has always been a 33B-spamming whore.

 

[Aven Kujo-Gin]

Nightmare is an awesome character. SCV NM is probably the best in the series. But he is not broken. The only nerf I would like is less damage in 4KK(from 46 damage to 36 damage) cuz I find way to strong for wall combos.

 

[Withvees]

Can we do something to Cervys movement. Why is his movement so good?

 

[Paragon049]

Yes, NM is now my main and yet I still feel like he's a little too strong. He can be played in such a way that he's essentially a long range, fast, high damage and relatively safe character. He has 2 step killing mids that are safe (22A and 44A), he has a safe launcher with GS cancel (and whoever said it takes hard execution is full of shit, this glitch is fucking easy). He has some of the best wall damage in the game, good RO game.

You are really overrating how good NM is compared to the high and top tier, and I can tell you haven't fought many actually strong players with the character. NM may seem great on paper in this iteration, but in practice he isn't quite so good. NM has big holes in his gameplay that people can exploit. For starters, NM's neutral game has serious problems. His strong moves from neutral are either high (Throws, aga) or very unsafe (3B, 3A/3AA), forcing you to essentially just use low damage pokes all day (Slow too. NM's fastest move is i13, so characters can abuse -12 moves vs him), unless you can somehow discourage them from not pushing buttons enough to try and go for 663B or 6632AA. The problem with this is that other characters still have access to their stupid stuff and can still destroy you just for trying to poke, since NM has bad frames and whiff recovery on his pokes (Bad JG frames as well; 3K and 2B are both -15 on JG) , as well as a terrible reverse mixup game. He has no multitasking reverse mixup tools, he doesn't get good damage off of them, and 9K is the only one that's safe (Unless you want to be gimmicky with 66B+K). His only "good" TCing move is 66K, which is one of the most pathetic TCing tools in the game (Unsafe no matter what version, and the mixup on hit is heavily in the opponents favor). This leaves you often having to use movement as a reverse mixup, and as we all know, movement is extremely unsafe in SC5. Even though NM's movement is good, it sure doesn't seem that way when you try to step at -8 or -10. At neutral, NM also doesn't have a good way to deter people from ducking and/or mashing TCing attacks against him all day, unless you want to make hard reads with 3B or 3AA (Or backstep all the time and take your paltry 20 damage whiff punish from long range 3B). Oh, and one other thing. At neutral, NM's only truly reliable step kill is 1K, everything else has whiffing issues; yes, even aga and 3K.

Let's talk about 33B and 22A, since everyone loves those moves. 22A would be incredible if it was easier to CH confirm and didn't come from 8WR. With the 6632A input, it goes from being i22 to i26 (IIRC at least. That buffering trick either adds 4 or 6 frames to the move, I don't remember which), which is too slow to be using at neutral, and someone would have to seriously mistime their step in order to caught get by it. It's much better at longer ranges, but is still hard to space properly (If you whiff the first A, the second one won't save you from getting whiff punished). The thing about it though, is that people can easily block it and step in a couple times to defeat whatever spacing you're trying to do with the move. It's like a shitty fireball in SF. 22AA and 22AA6 are unsafe, so it's hard to try and "mixup" with them. You can try and stop this with 33B, but if it gets blocked (And it will quite often), NM is left right next to them at -8 at best (-7 if you're a robot) and the opponent gets a free 50/50 on you. And that's just the best case scenario. If it whiffs or you do the cancel a little bit too late, you'll just outright get punished (Seriously, try doing the cancel consistently vs characters with i11 AAs...it's harder than you might think). The rest of NM's ranged stuff is pretty gimmicky, and death if it gets stepped or whiffs.

All in all, NM is just a character where situations are often in the opponent's favor in some way, either subtly or explicitly. NM does have some great moves, but making good use of them is difficult due to the previous sentence. He often has to put himself at more risk in order to get similar reward to other characters (Compare Pat's 66B to NM's 33B GS cancel for example). He has so many unfavorable MUs (A significant number of which are seriously awful. Four 3-7s and one 2-8), and has to work harder than most of the high and top tier, that to call the character "a little too strong" is just absurd.

 

[Withvees]

I think a cool buff for Mitsu 8A+B is to have it hit on start up on the way up. I feel like that would be the only way to make it viable

 

[fukou_da_man]

lol UP 8A+B combos into DWN 8A+B into CE x2 for 184 damange

 

[CaptainHook]

NM is weak

Maybe this is just coming from a previous Raphael main, I'll concede that my view might be a bit skewed because of this.

You touched on a lot of points but I'll only argue one of them:

You said he doesn't have any good TC moves, which is true, but he does have a spectacular WR B and he also has GS which leaves him in crouch. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't 1K and 2A TC as well? Those are decent pokes. If he had good TC moves like PAT for example he'd be fucking broken

He lacks good quick punishers at close range, but does he really need them? Your post kinda made it sound like you think NM needs to have it all like the tippy top tiers have, which IMO are more than just "a little bit too strong", more like a lot bit too strong.

Denying his obvious strengths, while exaggerating his so called 'huge holes' like his neutral game for example is, in my opinion, absurd. What's wrong with poking them to death with 1k's, aga's, and 3k's? Seems to work quite well as many people like to poke with him. That chip damage adds up and then you can get inside their head and make them choke on a big 66B or 3B launcher. And yes, most of his practical moves are relatively safe. You basically play keep away while chipping away and wait for chances for occasional big damage

His guard gauge damage is absurd, which probably leads into a huge wall combo or ringout.

He's a lot better than you make him sound and even his worst matchup's aren't really that bad at all. 2-8 is just overblowing it IMO. Everyone should have bad matchup's. That's what makes a game balanced.

And lastly, NM consistently places high on tourney's and that's all there is to it. Proof is in the pudding. Are you so sure that it's the players that make him look good or maybe he's a tad better than average? I'm certainly not saying he's broken, but also certainly saying that he doesn't need any buffs either.

 

[fukou_da_man]

Lol pat can step NMs aga.

 

[Aven Kujo-Gin]

I think a cool buff for Mitsu 8A+B is to have it hit on start up on the way up. I feel like that would be the only way to make it viable

Maybe this is just coming from a previous Raphael main, I'll concede that my view might be a bit skewed because of this.

You touched on a lot of points but I'll only argue one of them:

You said he doesn't have any good TC moves, which is true, but he does have a spectacular WR B and he also has GS which leaves him in crouch. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't 1K and 2A TC as well? Those are decent pokes. If he had good TC moves like PAT for example he'd be fucking broken

He lacks good quick punishers at close range, but does he really need them? Your post kinda made it sound like you think NM needs to have it all like the tippy top tiers have, which IMO are more than just "a little bit too strong", more like a lot bit too strong.

Denying his obvious strengths, while exaggerating his so called 'huge holes' like his neutral game for example is, in my opinion, absurd. What's wrong with poking them to death with 1k's, aga's, and 3k's? Seems to work quite well as many people like to poke with him. That chip damage adds up and then you can get inside their head and make them choke on a big 66B or 3B launcher. And yes, most of his practical moves are relatively safe. You basically play keep away while chipping away and wait for chances for occasional big damage

His guard gauge damage is absurd, which probably leads into a huge wall combo or ringout.

He's a lot better than you make him sound and even his worst matchup's aren't really that bad at all. 2-8 is just overblowing it IMO. Everyone should have bad matchup's. That's what makes a game balanced.

And lastly, NM consistently places high on tourney's and that's all there is to it. Proof is in the pudding. Are you so sure that it's the players that make him look good or maybe he's a tad better than average? I'm certainly not saying he's broken, but also certainly saying that he doesn't need any buffs either.

Agree. Nightmare is perfect the way he is now.