Who would win: Pit two characters who never fought in canon in battle.

[Alex.J]

there is no logic in video games

Take this squabble to PMs, where all great arguments are resolved for reasons.

 

[Yoite]

Your second statement contradicts your first.

1. If Pat can't win because realistically his fighting style leaves him open.
2. Talim can't win because because realistically a small girl wouldn't be able to lift or wield bladed tonfas properly. Tonfas being heavy hinders their effectiveness, not to mention the blades on the tonfas would be as much danger to her as the opponent. Amy's sword and fighting style are both legit though.

But remember, being realistic isn't canon. The SC world in of itself isn't overly realistic.

In retrospect yes Talim is a small girl who wouldn't be able to lift tonfa's, but my statement rests upon both realisticness and within the world of SC and in the world of SC Talim is known as the priestess of the wind and it is very likely that she is a lot stronger than she looks due to that so whereas in reality a girl of her stature should not be able to lift bladed tonfa's, it is possible that the wind is helping her do so.

Whereas in Pat's case not even in the world of SC is that fighting style explained as to how it benefits him, in either case it leaves him completely open. Saying the world of SC isn't overly realistic doesn't help that even in that world, it makes no sense, not even a magic explanation because of it being a fantasy world is ever used to explain it.

I main Amy in SC4 and she is one of my favourite characters of all time, so I would like it to be in Amy's favor naturally but I like to look at it unbiasedly and still think Talim would win that canonically lol.

 

[Alex.J]

In retrospect yes Talim is a small girl who wouldn't be able to lift tonfa's, but my statement rests upon both realisticness and within the world of SC and in the world of SC Talim is known as the priestess of the wind and it is very likely that she is a lot stronger than she looks due to that so whereas in reality a girl of her stature should not be able to lift bladed tonfa's, it is possible that the wind is helping her do so.

Whereas in Pat's case not even in the world of SC is that fighting style explained as to how it benefits him, in either case it leaves him completely open. Saying the world of SC isn't overly realistic doesn't help that even in that world, it makes no sense, not even a magic explanation because of it being a fantasy world is ever used to explain it.

I main Amy in SC4 and she is one of my favourite characters of all time, so I would like it to be in Amy's favor naturally but I like to look at it unbiasedly and still think Talim would win that canonically lol.

This argument is weak.

1. You make an assumption that the wind helps her lift the Tonfas? No proof of that.

2. You fail to address how Talims fighting still is realistically ineffective because blades on tonfas defeat the purpose of tonfas and they can hurt her. Even though you use the same argument with Pat saying his style leaves him open.

3. If you can make assumptions about Talim, I can also assume Pat has super natural speed that allows him to perfect that fighting style.

 

[Yoite]

This argument is weak.

1. You make an assumption that the wind helps her lift the Tonfas? No proof of that.

2. You fail to address how Talims fighting still is realistically ineffective because blades on tonfas defeat the purpose of tonfas and they can hurt her. Even though you use the same argument with Pat saying his style leaves him open.

3. If you can make assumptions about Talim, I can also assume Pat has super natural speed that allows him to perfect that fighting style.

1) That's why I said possibly, I've never made any imperatives in my argument. It was just for fun but you seem to be taking it way more seriously than me in which case I'll see if I can get any evidence lol.

'Talim has high skill in combat with her dual elbow blades. She possess a pure heart, and as such is apparently capable of purifying others. Being a priestess of the winds, she is capable of swaying the wind, using at in her fighting style and also being able to sense winds - using it for guidance'

< http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Talim >

It says here that she sways the wind and uses it for her fighting style. It's reasonable to say she can use it to make herself stronger as the avatars do in the last airbender. The evidence is still weak though as most SC evidence would be due to the lack of actual explanations for fighting styles in said games.

2) I fail to see how elbow blades are that dangerous for the user seeing as Assassins used to have elbow blades historically in the first place and was a common means of killing opponents. The Katar as well as that blades cousin, Pata, are real life examples of said blades which would be held with you hand facing towards the wielders arm rather than the opponent itself. Most likely the inspiration for the bladed tonfa's that Talim wields.

Whereas nowhere in history do I see Pat's style being implemented at all. No famous knight, no famous style, not even one that was inspired by it.

3) Feel free but my assumption I personally felt more warranted due to wind being able to actually be used to make things heavier than they seem, whereas super natural speed doesn't suit Pat due to his lack of supernatural abilities in SC (at least until Alpha pat).

EDIT: Also keep in mind in my first post I even said my knowledge is not massive of the game hence why I asked others to discuss it.

 

[Alex.J]

1) That's why I said possibly, I've never made any imperatives in my argument. It was just for fun but you seem to be taking it way more seriously than me in which case I'll see if I can get any evidence lol.

'Talim has high skill in combat with her dual elbow blades. She possess a pure heart, and as such is apparently capable of purifying others. Being a priestess of the winds, she is capable of swaying the wind, using at in her fighting style and also being able to sense winds - using it for guidance'

< http://soulcalibur.wikia.com/wiki/Talim >

It says here that she sways the wind and uses it for her fighting style. It's reasonable to say she can use it to make herself stronger as the avatars do in the last airbender. The evidence is still weak though as most SC evidence would be due to the lack of actual explanations for fighting styles in said games.

2) I fail to see how elbow blades are that dangerous for the user seeing as Assassins used to have elbow blades historically in the first place and was a common means of killing opponents. The Katar as well as that blades cousin, Pata, are real life examples of said blades which would be held with you hand facing towards the wielders arm rather than the opponent itself. Most likely the inspiration for the bladed tonfa's that Talim wields.

Whereas nowhere in history do I see Pat's style being implemented at all. No famous knight, no famous style, not even one that was inspired by it.

3) Feel free but my assumption I personally felt more warranted due to wind being able to actually be used to make things heavier than they seem, whereas super natural speed doesn't suit Pat due to his lack of supernatural abilities in SC (at least until Alpha pat).

EDIT: Also keep in mind in my first post I even said my knowledge is not massive of the game hence why I asked others to discuss it.

Well the flaw with your argument.

1. You say it's because of canon in the story she can use them.

2. You bring it to reality that isn't canon and use examples of non tonfa weapons.

Historically, a bladed tonfa is not a tonfa. Why? People learned to use this weapon because real weapons were outlawed. It's basically a wooden handle farmers taught themselves to use to protect themselves. Putting a blade on it would make it a weapon and then outlawed.

The style that was created to use the weapon, does not allow for blades to be practical. Talim spins the tonfa around like they are normal tonfa. This would be fine except the fact that they have blades on them and she's spinning blades right into her stomach. Does it seem useful to point sharp objects at yourself really fast during combat? This would put her in a serious amount of danger.

Compared to pat who is just using a sword single handed. His sword style most likely resembles Kendo sword techniques that come from attacks coming from the scabbard. Which is a real thing btw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido

Essentially, regarding to the SC universe this magic mumbo jumbo with talim is fine. But if you want to use a real world argument with pat, you need to use a real world argument with talim. Which does not work for her at all.

 

[Yoite]

Well the flaw with your argument.

1. You say it's because of canon in the story she can use them.

2. You bring it to reality that isn't canon and use examples of non tonfa weapons.

Historically, a bladed tonfa is not a tonfa. Why? People learned to use this weapon because real weapons were outlawed. It's basically a wooden handle farmers taught themselves to use to protect themselves. Putting a blade on it would make it a weapon and then outlawed.

The style that was created to use the weapon, does not allow for blades to be practical. Talim spins the tonfa around like they are normal tonfa. This would be fine except the fact that they have blades on them and she's spinning blades right into her stomach. Does it seem useful to point sharp objects at yourself really fast during combat? This would put her in a serious amount of danger.

Compared to pat who is just using a sword single handed. His sword style most likely resembles Kendo sword techniques that come from attacks coming from the scabbard. Which is a real thing btw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaido

Essentially, regarding to the SC universe this magic mumbo jumbo with talim is fine. But if you want to use a real world argument with pat, you need to use a real world argument with talim. Which does not work for her at all.

Sword attacks coming from the scabbard? That's Alpha Pat's fighting style, which I've not complained about at all. In fact that style makes way more sense. It's not Kendo, Kendo wielders hold their swords in front of them similarly to Mitsurugi's style. I would know seeing as I do Kendo myself in my uni club.

like so.

And you have misread my entire argument based on those two very linear, bad roundup statements.

My argument was that within the SC universe, it is not explained how regular Patrokolas is able to wield a weapon in the way he does, with the sword pointing behind him outwards, leaving his entire chest downwards open. It is not explained in the SC universe so any arguments coming from the SC universe makes no sound sense. So we looked into weapons in reality that could explain it. Likewise, in reality, that also makes no sense. Alpha Pat's style is not being debated here, as that style is fine.

In Talim's case I used the example of Katar and Pata as real life depictions of short weapons that went beside their palms, in a similar sense to the way Talim uses her bladed tonfa's. I know how regular tonfa's came about and how they were illegal, but we're discussing the bladed ones depicted in SC, not the wooden ones - not relevant for any reason apart from where regular tonfa's came from. Putting a blade onto a wooden tonfa makes it practical still as long as you avoid spinning those weapons at yourself.

You then brought up the case that she is too light to wield them, which proposed a problem. So in this case we have to search within the fictional realm now of SC to see if there is a possible explanation - which there is. She is the priestess of the wind as everyone knows, she controls the wind and can even make tornados, showing us her powers are not limited with this wind power. Wind can be used to enhance strength and so it is a fair argument to state that she could use this to help her use those weapons.

Bladed tonfa's aren't canon, I admitted that enough times in my posts, I used examples of similar weapons as you asked for them in this fear of 'she will stab herself', which is the only reason I even brought that part up.

1) Talim wields bladed tonfa's - these won't stab her using evidence of Katar and Pata which also have blades that point upwards towards the arm and get spun around - no refutation came to this. Also at no point does she spin the tonfa's directly at her body just so you know lol.

2) Talim is too light to wield them - Within the world of SC it is fair to state that wind could enhance her strength - but no actual proof given by me as there is none - but is more sensible a argument than 'super natural speed of patrokolas' as Patrokolas has no supernatural abilities and simply taught himself swordplay. Talim has actual supernatural powers of controlling the wind which can obviously help her lift heavier objects. Also keep in mind her throw animations have her lift enemy opponents in SC2, 3 and 4.

3) And so it is fair if I am using SC evidence for Pat to have SC evidence - of which none has helped this argument of Pat's style being dangerous to himself still.

4) Conclusively, observing both real life and SC canon - Patrokolas's style is still a hazard to himself at least moreso than Talim's style is to herself.

 

[Alex.J]

Sword attacks coming from the scabbard? That's Alpha Pat's fighting style, which I've not complained about at all. In fact that style makes way more sense.

You should of specified, since you never said anything about a shield. And when you said he was wide open. This would imply the style that doesn't have a shield.

My argument was that within the SC universe, it is not explained how regular Patrokolas is able to wield a weapon in the way he does, with the sword pointing behind him outwards, leaving his entire chest downwards open. It is not explained in the SC universe so any arguments coming from the SC universe makes no sound sense. So we looked into weapons in reality that could explain it. Likewise, in reality, that also makes no sense. Alpha Pat's style is not being debated here, as that style is fine.

Why would you use the real world to explain canon and video game universe when it's not applicable? The game creates it's own rules and universe.

In Talim's case I used the example of Katar and Pata as real life depictions of short weapons that went beside their palms, in a similar sense to the way Talim uses her bladed tonfa's. I know how regular tonfa's came about and how they were illegal, but we're discussing the bladed ones depicted in SC, not the wooden ones - not relevant for any reason apart from where regular tonfa's came from. Putting a blade onto a wooden tonfa makes it practical still as long as you avoid spinning those weapons at yourself.

Comparing different weapons that aren't tonfa. Waste of time. Explaining the origins is applicable to how she uses tonfa since it mirrors real tonfu use, and yes she spins them at herself.

You then brought up the case that she is too light to wield them, which proposed a problem. So in this case we have to search within the fictional realm now of SC to see if there is a possible explanation - which there is. She is the priestess of the wind as everyone knows, she controls the wind and can even make tornados, showing us her powers are not limited with this wind power. Wind can be used to enhance strength and so it is a fair argument to state that she could use this to help her use those weapons.

It's not fair since it's an assumption.

Bladed tonfa's aren't canon, I admitted that enough times in my posts, I used examples of similar weapons as you asked for them in this fear of 'she will stab herself', which is the only reason I even brought that part up.

Bladed tonfas are canon you fool. They exist in the game and the story.

1) Talim wields bladed tonfa's - these won't stab her using evidence of Katar and Pata which also have blades that point upwards towards the arm and get spun around - no refutation came to this. Also at no point does she spin the tonfa's directly at her body just so you know lol.

Using evidence of another weapon is pointless. Especially since we have the fucking videogame to look at. Where she spins the blade into her body. You cry about Pat but don't take two seconds to look how badly Talims weapon wielding is? Come on man, you are better than this.

2) Talim is too light to wield them - Within the world of SC it is fair to state that wind could enhance her strength - but no actual proof given by me as there is none - but is more sensible a argument than 'super natural speed of patrokolas' as Patrokolas has no supernatural abilities and simply taught himself swordplay. Talim has actual supernatural powers of controlling the wind which can obviously help her lift heavier objects. Also keep in mind her throw animations have her lift enemy opponents in SC2, 3 and 4.

It's only a more sensible argument to yourself. Just because you say you make sense or it's a good argument. Doesn't mean it is. Regardless you jump to a mighty big assumption.

3) And so it is fair if I am using SC evidence for Pat to have SC evidence - of which none has helped this argument of Pat's style being dangerous to himself still.

Talim is more dangerous to herself because she swings a blade at herself at high speeds. Please try to play the videogame next time?

4) Conclusively, observing both real life and SC canon - Patrokolas's style is still a hazard to himself at least moreso than Talim's style is to herself.

Not at all, when does Pat swing the weapon at himself? When does Pat use a weapon that wouldn't be realistically used or practical? Your whole argument is a mess.

 

[fukou_da_man]

Shield are pretty dangerous. What if he drops it then accidentally slides down a big hill and it throws him in the water and he just happens to be unable to swim?

 

[Alex.J]

Shield are pretty dangerous. What if he drops it then accidentally slides down a big hill and it throws him in the water and he just happens to be unable to swim?

Shields are definitely dangerous. It's not like anyone uses them to block or for protection. Pat is better off without it.

 

[Marginal]

My argument was that within the SC universe, it is not explained how regular Patrokolas is able to wield a weapon in the way he does, with the sword pointing behind him outwards, leaving his entire chest downwards open. It is not explained in the SC universe so any arguments coming from the SC universe makes no sound sense. So we looked into weapons in reality that could explain it. Likewise, in reality, that also makes no sense. Alpha Pat's style is not being debated here, as that style is fine.

Iaido vs European armor is actually rather nonsensical.

As for Pat's style, he's not standing open. He has a shield covering him. His sword held straight out behind him makes it impossible for someone head on with him to determine what he's doing with his sword before he strikes. His head blocks sight of his sword arm. Couple that with the sheild and Pat could conceiveably use the shield to disguise his sword movements further.

It's a gimmick and it is a reflection of Pat's insecurity with his borrowed/invented style that he opted to use such an approach.

 

[Sett]

I'm not reading this shit but Talim has been shown to be able to use Tonfas which means she can indeed use Tonfas.

 

[Alex.J]

Iaido vs European armor is actually rather nonsensical.

As for Pat's style, he's not standing open. He has a shield covering him. His sword held straight out behind him makes it impossible for someone head on with him to determine what he's doing with his sword before he strikes. His head blocks sight of his sword arm. Couple that with the sheild and Pat could conceiveably use the shield to disguise his sword movements further.

It's a gimmick and it is a reflection of Pat's insecurity with his borrowed/invented style that he opted to use such an approach.

Good analysis, I also think the creators of Soul Calibur wanted Pat to have an exaggerated style. Because within the context of the story. He's pretty arrogant and naive. It doesn't necessarily mean he's weak though, since he murders tons of fools in the story line with it. But they wanted a clear contrast before he gets the Soul Calibur to further highlight the massive change in his style, character, and demeanor. His fighting style seems to be a mockery of other people and he chooses a non optimal way of fighting on purpose. Which is a reflection of how cocky he is but also how skilled he is at the same time. Like an Anderson Silva match where he drops his guard and waits for someone to come in.

 

[Alex.J]

I'm not reading this shit but Talim has been shown to be able to use Tonfas which means she can indeed use Tonfas.

Agreed, within the context of the game. She 100% can. And there really shouldn't be an argument passed that.

But Yoite kept trying to argue that Pat's style couldn't be used in real life as why Pat would lose to Talim. In real life, Talim wouldn't be able to use them the way the game shows. But for some reason, he is having trouble understanding the difference between game and reality and how his own argument conflicts with itself.

 

[fukou_da_man]

In real life, Talim would lose to the entire cast. She's like 12 and uses little sticks to fight that obviously are going to require a great deal of strength and dexterity to properly implement. Both of which her tiny body could not possibly possess. Even Amy makes more sense as a rapier doesn't exactly require a massive amount of strength to use effectively.

 

[Alex.J]

Also if we want to talk real life. Cervantes has a straight up gun with him. I think he would destroy most people quite easy. Using real life examples to explain a fantasy world like Soul Calibur in a lot of ways isn't that practical in explaining how Soul Calibur works.

 

[Yoite]

Iaido vs European armor is actually rather nonsensical.

As for Pat's style, he's not standing open. He has a shield covering him. His sword held straight out behind him makes it impossible for someone head on with him to determine what he's doing with his sword before he strikes. His head blocks sight of his sword arm. Couple that with the sheild and Pat could conceiveably use the shield to disguise his sword movements further.

It's a gimmick and it is a reflection of Pat's insecurity with his borrowed/invented style that he opted to use such an approach.

That actually makes more sense than when I first analysed it. The idea of the head covering the sword arm I mean. I just find it weird still as I've never heard of a style like that ever. It makes sense that it reflects his arrogant nature though.

I know he has a shield covering his front for defense but despite that I just always found it to be silly with the sword going all the way behind him, and it still looks fairly open to me.

I'm not really appreciating the insults despite the fact I've said countless times I'm not as knowledgeable as most about this and that I didn't even want to start a massive debate. All of my thoughts were from straight out of my head to add insight, not arguments or me saying any of my points are imperatives. My original question was whether talim or amy would win in a fight and that's all. I merely believed Pat's style to not be sensible as an example. Oh and when I said bladed tonfa's aren't canon that was a mistake in words, I meant 'Bladed tonfa's aren't real, I admitted that enough times in my posts, I used examples of similar weapons as you asked for them in this fear of 'she will stab herself', which is the only reason I even brought that part up.'

I mean I prefer Amy over Talim anyway and if the majority think she would win than that's cool with me. I just realistically thought that it would be Talim due to her enhanced powers of wind. A recent thought occurred to me though in regards to Amy also having vampire powers from Raphael. This may or may not give her a sense of supernatural ability too. However, this isn't mentioned in any soulcalibur lore.

Sorry for late response, have had essay deadlines and work to do.

 

[Alex.J]

I'm not really appreciating the insults despite the fact I've said countless times I'm not as knowledgeable as most about this and that I didn't even want to start a massive debate. All of my thoughts were from straight out of my head to add insight, not arguments or me saying any of my points are imperatives. My original question was whether talim or amy would win in a fight and that's all. I merely believed Pat's style to not be sensible as an example. Oh and when I said bladed tonfa's aren't canon that was a mistake in words, I meant 'Bladed tonfa's aren't real, I admitted that enough times in my posts, I used examples of similar weapons as you asked for them in this fear of 'she will stab herself', which is the only reason I even brought that part up.'

I mean I prefer Amy over Talim anyway and if the majority think she would win than that's cool with me. I just realistically thought that it would be Talim due to her enhanced powers of wind. A recent thought occurred to me though in regards to Amy also having vampire powers from Raphael. This may or may not give her a sense of supernatural ability too. However, this isn't mentioned in any soulcalibur lore.

Sorry for late response, have had essay deadlines and work to do.

I should stop trying to reason with you and merely just insult you. But since I am a reasonable man and you still fail to realize why your argument makes no fricking sense. Let me explain it to you.


1. This is a video game, it contains it's own lore and rules. It's not real life and it has it's own universe.

2. You compared one character to real life on why he would be bad but refused to do the same for another.

3. Talim is using tonfa's and her character style is based on tonfas. Not other weapons. How do you not understand this? Also, she in facts swings the tonfa's into her body which would be extremely dangerous. If you think I am wrong, go back to games where they have talim.

4. Don't mix and match. Either stick to the lore of the game or don't. Setts argument clearly works for the game, "She uses them well in the game" therefore it works. But the same argument logically has to be applied to Pat also right? Therefore if you want to say pats style doesn't work in real life, you have to also look at if talims style in real life. Seriously? How many times does this have to be explained to you?

 

[fukou_da_man]

That actually makes more sense than when I first analysed it. The idea of the head covering the sword arm I mean. I just find it weird still as I've never heard of a style like that ever. It makes sense that it reflects his arrogant nature though.

A similar practice is used in pretty much any swordplay. You always point your sword directly at an opponent so they can't determine the length for example. Little nuances like that are common, such as wielding a 2 handed sword by the blade and hitting people with the hilt.

 

[Alex.J]

When's marvel?

When will Linkorz be on spectatorcast?

 

[Party Wolf]

@Jaimenator vs Astaroth