Stop making match-up charts!

MONEYMUFFINS

MONEYMUFFINS

[13] Hero
They are always wrong. The reason I'm against tier lists based on specific match-ups is because we get outrageous results like this: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmAA8v332bAodG10RVB4Z2drWjN3dWFqeFp1S3g5dEE&hl=en#gid=5


Cassandra is better than Amy.
Tira is better than Nightmare.
Lizardman is better than Cervantes.
Siegfried is better than Xianghua.
Zasalamel is better than Nightmare.



I only encourage these charts to be made if you want me to laugh joyfully. Otherwise, cut it out. :(
 
Even if you made a tier list off match-ups, you wouldn't come up with such a retarded looking list.
 
I agree with Zasamella being better with NM and don't know too much about Tira to comment.

Still, I don't like matchup charts so much as I do in-depth matchup analysis. Anyone can say, 'I get my ass whipped by so and so' by backing up and strengths and weaknesses for matchups gets my dick hard.
 
Vincent said:
They are always wrong. The reason I'm against tier lists based on specific match-ups is because we get outrageous results like this: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmAA8v332bAodG10RVB4Z2drWjN3dWFqeFp1S3g5dEE&hl=en#gid=5


Cassandra is better than Amy.
Tira is better than Nightmare.
Lizardman is better than Cervantes.
Siegfried is better than Xianghua.
Zasalamel is better than Nightmare.



I only encourage these charts to be made if you want me to laugh joyfully. Otherwise, cut it out. :(
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Is this really unbelievable ?
Whyis Amy sooooo broken ? Because of Thuggish/DK ? Any other example ?

Same question for all the others. This is not based on players, but character.
We talked a lot about it before to come to this. Because of different experience from people, some diseagree on certain point.
No one agree on everything, but in the end, the more player discuss about it, the more accurate it is.
Keev in France won against many players, many characters including Hilde. So ?
Nothing can be said, except that Keev is strong. Not his character. Why would it be different about Thuggish/DK ?

+ we did it for us. No one is forced to agree with it. But at least you laugh, so it's not that bad.
FreackySound only wanted to help about the choice of low tier characters.
 
Malek:

Don't go there. Most people here in our country cannot see past what they don't understand or can't beat. U will look bad for arguing
 
*sigh* Amy is not broken. She is still damn solid and definitely better than Cass, regardless of player. I disagree with a few of the character placings on the french chart, but I can't really complain cause at least they were able to collectively make a decision and complete one.

Thugish winning does not make Amy any better. In fact, Amy being so good is what helps Thugish win so much.
 
malek said:
Whyis Amy sooooo broken ? Because of Thuggish/DK ? Any other example ?
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Or..

was she put into mid tiers because of Tresto? :P

Not judging Tresto's level because I have never played him, I just remember Belial saying that France doesn't consider Amy that good because this character is rarely played there and they mostly base their opinion about her on Tresto's Amy, who isn't on Thugish's or Dreamkiller's level.

So this is a little contradiction to what you said:

This is not based on players, but character.
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malek said:
Is this really unbelievable ?
Whyis Amy sooooo broken ? Because of Thuggish/DK ? Any other example ?

Same question for all the others. This is not based on players, but character.
We talked a lot about it before to come to this. Because of different experience from people, some diseagree on certain point.
No one agree on everything, but in the end, the more player discuss about it, the more accurate it is.
Keev in France won against many players, many characters including Hilde. So ?
Nothing can be said, except that Keev is strong. Not his character. Why would it be different about Thuggish/DK ?

+ we did it for us. No one is forced to agree with it. But at least you laugh, so it's not that bad.
FreackySound only wanted to help about the choice of low tier characters.
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That list speaks less about the characters and so much more about French players.

We might not have an official list, but at least we understand that with new players and new skills, nothing is certain about these lists. But that FR list is so out side the general consensus of what North America considers; it's absurd.
 
Ring said:
Or..

was she put into mid tiers because of Tresto? :P

Not judging Tresto's level because I have never played him, I just remember Belial saying that France doesn't consider Amy that good because this character is rarely played there and they mostly base their opinion about her on Tresto's Amy, who isn't on Thugish's or Dreamkiller's level.

So this is a little contradiction to what you said:
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Belial was part of the people who helped us for Mitsurugi. How ever he is wrong about Amy.
We didn't decide about her based on Tresto's Amy.
After lots of discussion we decide (I meen, Mitsu players + some other like me or Saitoh) Mitsu-Amy is 5-5.
Is there someone else in the world than Belial who can argue better about this match up ? I don't think so.
And we did the same for most of the match-up. We just lack XP from Omega (Zasa) and Kura (Talim).
Of course players were part of the process. However, Xp from player are not religion.
We listen, we discuss, we tried to understand, to analyse, to apply, and then decide.
Example: Saitoh think that Asta vs Setsu is 3-7. How ever, after some discussion between Maxou, Saitoh, Ahriman, Freacky, myself and some others we disagree. So, we all together decide that it is 4-6 even if Saitoh disagree.
We did the same for most of the match up.
If you just look at the chart, you'll see that Amy only have 3 bad match up (Hilde, Voldo, Setsuka), so she is strong.
She is just not that strong compared to Cassandra for example.
And, Top 4 Fr was Saitoh, Keev, DTN and Kayane. So Asta, Night, Yoshi/Sieg, X.
I can't see any relation between their character and the chart...

SU
Ring and Vincent are not from USA, right ? + I liked them.
I don't care looking bad. I just don't want Freacky to be alone in this.
We (Fr players) did this chart together, so we have to assume it together.
 
so we make a topic about how we should stop talking about matchups, then we talk about matchups. something is wrong here methinks
 
So after taking another look at France's matchup chart, I'm not seeing what is so outrageous about it. There maybe a few things that I disagree with, but in the grand scheme of things, how much are those few disagreements going to change the tier list as a whole? Not much.

As far as Cassandra being better than Amy, Cassandra has a 140 and Amy has a 136 on that matchup chart. The difference is only by 4. What's outrageous about that? My interpretation of that is Cassandra is slightly better than Amy against the entire cast.

Plus you are always free to make your own chart eventhough it's much easier to complain, but we're almost 2 years in and people still can't come to enough of a consensus to make a matchup chart. So my suggestions would be to either get a bunch of people together OFFLINE and discuss it, use the French chart, or get Justin Wong to make you one.

Or simply start with the French chart, discuss the matchups you don't agree with, and go from there.
 
Vincent said:
I've met this lady recently and from the moment i seen her i was hooked.
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algolagrees.gif
 
One last thing (to Malek):

My reasoning for this whole matter begins with a simple case. Look at the thread I posted above. There, you see that my disagreement comes from me saying, "In my opinion, Sophitia is superior to Xianghua. So why is Xianghua considered better than her?" Then, you take a look at your own chart from France, and what do you know, Sophitia is considered better than her... Just as I seem to think so, too.

So, the question is, if a match-up chart is all about listening to the experts and judging the character objectively... then who do you listen to exactly? It seems we will always have a significant amount of disagreement to the point that there is no definitive truth. That is why a tier list has to be more general. Unfortunately, if a character-specific chart speaks on behalf of the community then it is more likely players will feel their input is meaningless. Hence, my message here is to discourage unnecessary conflict in the future by changing the way you think. Thanks.
 
Mmmh, even if i respect vincent´s oppinion, it´s really time to get things straight.

Like Malice said, this game(SCIV) is almost 2 years old, and people are still argung on this side.

I´ve looked at the french match up list more than once to compare it to my own oppinion.

And it fits up to 90%! I was really surprised that most of my thoughts about SCIV Characters were almost identical to the french list.

I´ve accepted that list as a "final" one until another one comes which makes even more!? "sense", if that is even possible... ^^

But this is really a fine list imo.
 
I agree with french tier list. It should be stickied and considered the universal one regardless of 2 characters that imo should be a notch lower its the most accurate. Congrats to having a strong and unified community Malek now create a WGC 2011!
 
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