Stop making match-up charts!

@Malek, yeah but I was just referring to this one example here (Amy) and not only Mitsu vs Amy, but Amy in general. Belial believes she is a broken character and he played vs her a lot, he has a lot of knowledge on this matchup. I think to really know what certain character is capable of you first need a good player to reveal that, so in the end, imo matchups are based both on the players and characters.

I'm not gonna argue with that matchup chart. Just looking at Ivy I can see that there is a lot of difference, as some of her scores seem overstated when compared to 8WR's Ivy Soul Arena matchup chart, making her 2nd best character in the game.
 
Generally don't most of us believe the top has these characters...

Hilde
Amy
Voldo
Kilik
Ivy
Setsuka
 
Something-Unique said:
Don't go there. Most people here in our country cannot see past what they don't understand or can't beat. U will look bad for arguing
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Something-Unique said:
It should be stickied and considered the universal one regardless of 2 characters that imo should be a notch lower its the most accurate. Congrats to having a strong and unified community Malek
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It's easy to pass judgment whether you're right or wrong. But don't forget that when you're wrong, you're just as guilty as the people you spoke down to. If you can see where I'm coming from, then my question is this: Why act so perfect all the time? Or for that matter, why even make generalizations at all? I'm asking this for the times you actually mean what you say. Not, "I was just joking, I didn't mean anything by that statement."
 
Tier/Matchup charts are only as correct or incorrect as the pool of the best players who created them together. Ex 1: SU and RTD dispute over Hilde. Ex 2: Thuggish and Belial dispute over Amy. Ex 3: People such as Omega, Malek, Dreamkiller, Saitoh dispute over Hilde and Amy. Look at those examples. Do u comprehend?

Ok wait i'll break it down lol tiers/matchup charts are most accurate based on...

1. Who best represents that character.
2. Who best represents going up against that character.
3. High level competitors in High level play.

The above statements are foundations for fighting game tiers/matchups. Why is SC supposed to be different again? lol

So to answer ur question I would accept being correct or incorrect among those that fit the above criteria and as u say try to act perfect all the time amongst those whose opinions hold no weight :).

I would also as u mention if it fits the bill. Their is no unity for SC in this country do I really need to argue this Vince oh Vince? lol I think not.
 
Something-Unique said:
Their is no unity for SC in this country
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8WR does not represent USA as much as it does the entire SC community. It's the largest hub we have that everyone posts on. If we make a match-up chart on 8WR, there can't be this 'unity' that you speak of because it's not as simple as other national SC websites. With that said, it's complicated to make certain decisions in general.

Honestly, I don't even think Shoryuken's forum has a similar ratio of international players posting on one forum as we do. If anyone knows that'd be interesting.
 
Ok, so, I disagree with a number of things on that tier list, but what irks me most is all the 8-2's on that matchup chart.

IMO, discounting yoda, there's likely only one 8-2 in the game: algol/talim. And yet look at how many 8-2's (and 7-3's) there are, and yoda and Algol aren't even on those charts! (that part is not a complaint, just making emphasis).

I feel it's as if they see a bad matchup and then exaggerate for effect.
 
I'm referring to U.S when talking unified whatever. 8wayrun is U.S.

Random note:

I'm beginning to think there are better stronger SC competitors online than offline with the exception of big names. Thats how much I value the average opinion
 
SU i been saying that for a while now. the experience gap between online new players and OG offline elite is closing. new players are emerging with a greater understanding of various styles and greater ability to adapt imo. i think it will still take a couple years, but we are only gonna be seeing more and more online players doing well.
 
lobo said:
SU i been saying that for a while now. the experience gap between online new players and OG offline elite is closing. new players are emerging with a greater understanding of various styles and greater ability to adapt imo. i think it will still take a couple years, but we are only gonna be seeing more and more online players doing well.
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I actually find myself agreeing with that. Pre internet days the concept of high level play was rarely seen by an individual, even those dedicated to being good and playing it religiously. It needed certain understandings and groups of people to develop. With internet people are being introduced to things they would never expect to think of and have the ability to witness many types of play styles. Before most people thought being able to do combos and hard moves was the epitome of skill (ever seen a player play SF with only special moves and no basics?). As much as the internet gave us lag tactic scrubs, it did ironically push the base skill of the average player up significantly. I'd say a lag scrub is still better than the average person pre internet in terms of skill and game philosophy.
 
Lol it's because the level offline is dropping at rapid rate. Pre Evo this community was rampart with scary players offline.

You're just not going to reach back to that level playing online, not happening. Strong offline communities produce better results by a long shot.
 
Something-Unique said:
I'm referring to U.S when talking unified whatever. 8wayrun is U.S.
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In that case, all the non-USA players must be stopped dead in their tracks before offering input on official 8WR tier discussions. Perhaps we should add a disclaimer that says, "Don't bother mentioning your point of view. Heathen!"

I'm at least glad for this clarification.
 
lobo:

I agree. Though the reasoning for this imo is different that urs. I'll be able to tell soon enough since I have been conditioning myself for online for a couple of days now. To be honest im more intrigued by SC4 online competitive level than offline which is kinda sad.

Vincent:

Either ur still missing the point or ur just being Vincent.
 
I disagree with the idea of making matchup charts in general, but while I'm here I'm just going to say that I think the French one is horrible. :)
 
I've met this matchup chart recently and from the moment i seen her i was hooked. I had no idea she was outrageous till i asked her she looks so dam outrageous like 8-2 matchups all over the place with Cassandra being better than Amy. I have no idea how to approach matchup chart i really lucked up one night we were alone at work breaking down matchups in general and she told me she was divorced and single and turns out she's into younger guys not too mention i'm good looking.

So long story short we exchanged numbers and i invited her and her son over for BBQ. Things are starting to heat up but i find myself messing up at times because of the age difference.
 
Ok, step by step.

First note about theese match up.
Character are expect to be played well (high succes with character's command), well knowledge of the match up, same level for both players, etc... well the common hypothesis.

Vincent
About your past thread, from what I see only US player's discuss about Sophitia and X. Maxou talked about Sophi vs Setsu.
No disrespect to MTF and Ramon (who I and most of the Fr players consider as the best X and Sophi players from USA) but they talked about their own xp. They both think something and try to explain it. That's all.
It's only the first step before to decide something.
We didn't ask them before to choose Sophi vs X, however we read their post and much more on several forums.
We listen Kayane, Gremy, Maxou, Saitoh, EggMaster, ChrisOrochi, Ahriman, AlexDeLyon, Jawell, ... and myself.
At least 20 people talked Sophitia match-up (one of the most controversed character, and the one we changed often a lot of match up in order to be as accurate as possible), and many people test and tried several things.

SU
We are in july. A little soon to say anything... I'm not even sure that their is going to be another event in Cannes. Maybe Paris..., but to soon to say anything.

Ring
Belial fight against and only against Kingusha. Kingusha seems to be a VERY strong player with Amy.
Belial don't think Amy is broken, he knows that Kingusha is broken. I meen it's not accurate.
We all are the same. I think that Zasalamel is STRONG. Really !
But I'm the only one who think this way, because I fight Omega and he destroyed me.
So my opinion on this particular character is not accurate. Even if I give argument, even if I explain some match up, etc...
Only one player cannot choose alone a match up cause it will be based on his/her particular xp, which is not accurate.
But of course Belial's posts were the basic of Mitsu and Amy match up cause we cannot just don't listen to a player with such xp.
And by the way, Keev played Amy for a time (but you cannot find this information on the net). He also played Talim, Cassandra and Rock.
About Ivy, 8wr match up were the start of Ivy's Match up. But then we had to decide a lot of match up who are in contradiction with others characters match up. To make it simple: Scud was the one to said "no, no Ivy is weak, she has trouble against most of the match up, my character is weak I'm the one who is strong", I was the one "she is broken" and all the others were the one to say "Setsuka is better, Cassandra is weaker, Astaroth is weaker, etc...". But in the end SW a+bA+B, SW 2A+K, CL 1B B+K, CS, WP 6B+K2_8 etc... are too strong to be ignore. In some match up, only one of this move can sut down a match up. Example, CL 1B B+K vs X is BROKEN cause it beats ALL OF HER MOVE. Of course she can 8wr, or Gi or... but in the end of the day Ivy will win. No doubt. You can ask more explanation on the Ivy forum if you want me to explain some overstated match-up in particular.

Sporko
First, let's explain what are the number in this chart.
5-5 is even. 6-4 is a slight advantage. 7-3 is a true advantage that is really important. 8-2 is a match up that is basically not possible to win without some luck. 9-1 is a match up not possible to win even with luck.
8-2 and 7-3 were a point we talked a lot about. Some people, just like you, say that this is stupid and shouldn't appears in a match up chart. So we decide to compare with some other match up chart establish since long time and that no one will contradict (some japaneese match up for SF3.3). In this match up chart there is some (not so much but still) 7-3. I just tried to compare what does look like a 7-3 in SF3.3 and tried to see if the same situation can happen in Soul. And I found (and Ahriman and Alucardo agree with me) that yes, 7-3 exist and are not impossible match up, but just a very hard match up. which also exist in SoulCalibur. Ivy vs X is the example I can talked the more about if you want me to explain what is a 7-3.
About 8-2. Look at the characters who had 8-2 match up: Hilde, Rock and Mina. The GOD TIER and the 2 BOTTOM TIER. And yes, theese match up exist. We didn't put the numbers just because it's fun or because we imagine them. We discuss, ask for more people xp, read forums, we test, we discuss again, test again and then decide. I played Mina for 6 month (+ I had played her since the beginning but not in FT5 or FT10), FreakySound plays her since the beginning, Dina tried her, EggMaster tried her, Maxou tried her, Ahriman tried her, MasterOz plays her since the beginning, we read InsaneKhent posts, we watch his vids, same for page and KrazySyko... and YES this character CANNOT win several match up in this game. Let's talked about Ivy-Rock matchup. I explained since a year that Rock cannot beat Ivy, I explained why and how both has to fight each other and why it's not possible for Rock to win. I challenge A LOT OF ROCK players including LAU, one from UK, Keev, Saitoh, Kawaks (Switzerland), Pantocrator, one from Germany,... and I had never loose ! NEVER. So ?
Saitoh and I tried a lot of match Ivy-Rock and it ended 3 time in a row on the same score: 8-2 for me. On this particular match, I'm the one who test the more, and yes it is 8-2. Rock cannot win against Ivy except with luck (mainly random Gi).
Same was done for Hilde and Mina. Hilde's match up are in fact not the one you can see but a score between match up on Open map and match up on closed map cause it's very different from one to another. But in this game there are more open map that closed one...

Look like more and more people are watching this chart ah ah
But most of the french stop watching it since most agree with it now.
But I'm still conected, so I can answer questions on the chat of the chart too.
 
malek said:
To make it simple: Scud was the one to said "no, no Ivy is weak, she has trouble against most of the match up, my character is weak I'm the one who is strong", I was the one "she is broken" and all the others were the one to say "Setsuka is better, Cassandra is weaker, Astaroth is weaker, etc..."
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With that simplicity I look like a retarded guy who's showing off... I love you Malek.
 
So a lot of skilled players were very very wrong, no worries this happens often. A great player doesn't necessary make a great coach or analyst.

Just based off the fact that Thugish won WCG, and it wasn't even close his fight with Maxou. Who by the way was attacking so much at disadvantage it was really surprising to watch. And you guys only considered banning Hilde after RTD showed up, tells me that your opinion of this game is way off. Simply because all your most skilled players don't play top tier characters.

Omega beat you considerably because he is very good with G2, and his reaction is pretty crazy. He's just a better player. Nothing he does will change Zas's standing in the tier lists. You should watch that fight again.

The biggest difference between US and the rest of the world is that we find the cheapest and easiest way to victory, which makes our knowledge of brokeness considerably higher. If you guys really have strats that can ease Amy please share them with us.
 
Malek:

I agree with the Ivy vs. X. It's funny cause I played out that exact situation last night against LostProvidence. His stepping and movement with X is superb and I could really hit him with Ivy at all without risk of getting popped by her twirled step move or just getting stepped. So I stayed in CL and spaced all day with CL 1B B+K. Jesus it works wonders on her stepping and shuts her down.

I remember seeing scud do it against a X in France so I thought of doing it.

KingAce:

No offense but u seriously seriously have no idea wat ur talking about and ur way off by a seriously large margin.

Edit:
By the way TP lost 2 times before he beat Maxou. Maxou lacks a lot like having absolutely no defense and poor judgement but his combo execution with Sets is so good it shows just how strong she is and wat she can get away with. That's just one of all things wrong with ur post. Ur way of base.
 
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