The battle of big swords

sieg and nm are pretty equal with eachother. im not gonna delve into detail about it, but really the only advantage nm has over sieg is movement. they both have similat capabilities, but they both play somewhat differently from eachother. they both got nice whiff punishing, nice RO's, decent grab games, decent zoning, decent presure, decent tech traps, u name it. one excels more in certain area's than the other and vice versa. although nightmare's movement is a bit better, u also gotta remember siegfried has one of the fastest front step's in the game too. its like hilde step of front step lol.

nm vs siegfried is probably around 5-5. the one thing i cud see that may throw this matchup slightly more into nightmare's favour would be his stepping capabilities, but even then, IMO, it may as well be an even matchup.

as for sophie vs sieg, because she is capable of shutting down almost every move in siegfrieds command list, i'd easily say the matchup is 8-2 in her favour. does that mean sieg cant win? no, but he has his work cut out for him. siegfried has to be very safe, as well as think on his feet, and even then he might still lose. its possibly siegfried's worst matchup, even worse than fighting ivy, or amy.

i cant speak sophie vs nm because i lack the experience for that matchup. however, i can imagine he has at least a slightly easier time due to the fact that he's more mobile, so he's better at stepping TAS B.

cass isnt too bad for siegfried. mind u he has to tone down his moveset a little, but so long as he keeps things simple and remains patient, its not much of a problem to deal with cass. its probably a 6-4 matchup in cass's favour. nothing too terrible.

now, getting back to the point, it really comes down too which style do you prefer more? that of nightmare? or that of siegfried? both characters, while their movesets themselves are easy to master, are difficult to master in technique and application. you cant just pick up these guys and be "yay! im pro nighty/siggy" or whatever, it takes alot of work, u have to know them like the back of your hand, and you have to be willing to take risks and try new things. push your tools to their limits, see exactly how far you can go with an idea or a mixup. say you have 1K for example. make a flowchart in your head of every possible, plausible thing you could do after 1K on grd, hit, and CH. now your thinking in the amount of depth that these two character's demand. really, its all about experimenting and getting a feel for the characters to discover what style suits you. tbh, just go for who's most fun for you, u can figure out all the technical shit later. but neither of these characters are for the feint of heart to be certain.
 
damn-I-Suck said:
Ya if you think using 4-5 moves constitutes "thinking".
Click to expand...

Sophie still requires tons of effort in order to abuse her powerful tools to their fullest. And, as with every character, you need more than 4-5 moves.

Top 5 are:
TAS B
BB
AA
2A
Throws

Using only these moves won't allow you to maximize your expected value or your damage when you're sure you've predicted your opponent. You need to add moves for ringout, catching step at longer ranges, stronger sidestep whiff punish. A fast TAS B:4 does obsolete a large portion of her moves, but she has plenty of other useful tools. When you factor in everything else, the amount of moves required is average.

You have to be a little bit creative with her mixups as well. She has no stances or good lows to mid-low mixup with. Of her 5 lows, 11A and 1A are reactable, b2BBB is slow, low damage, linear, -frames on hit, 2K is the worst version of the standard -4/+2/-14 low, with lower damage and range than most. The only useable low is 1K, which isn't that good unless you space it well enough to negate the -2. She has some options with her throws, but her throw range is pretty short. Her oki is pretty bad too.

When the opponent plays it safe, her damage has to come from good spacing and taking risks, and knowing how and when to do this with Sophie requires just as much thought as any other character... you just have to do it better than everyone else.

Her reverse-mixup, or mixups at disadvantage are very complex, she has lots TC options ranging from safe, tracking, damaging, early TC, late TC, you name it. You might be missing out on her complexity if you're just sitting and guarding at disadvantage.

Execution is not that easy either. Getting her TAS B into the i16-i17 range from neutral takes some good execution, and you need to be that fast in order to punish well in that range and to be uninterruptable in the common +4 to +6 situation, or if you want huge damage from "random" attacks. Using TAS B after landing her smaller launchers is required in order to get good damage, you don't have to be quite as fast, but it's still pretty hard. I'll also add that hitting the :4 JF is very important as it adds 30 to the normal 50 damage, and the oki after missing it completely is horrible. Timing is slightly different for AS B and TAS B as well.

Sophie's really not that easy, and I think you're exaggerating the effort required to play everyone else, most characters are pretty simple.
 
A lot of characters are simple, but Sophie is MUCH simpler than the rest. The best Sophie players still only seem to use 4-5 moves 95% of the time, which is what I'm basing this off of. Maybe she was different for you, but for me she seemed like a walk in the park.
 
This correlation between using less moves and thinking less is lolllllllllllllll

I'm sure RTD never thinks at all when he plays SC2 and his legendary 5 move X.

Say what you will about YOU PERSONALLY disliking the fact that they use only 5 moves, but please get this bullshit out of here that it's brainless.

-Idle
 
IdleMind said:
This correlation between using less moves and thinking less is lolllllllllllllll

I'm sure RTD never thinks at all when he plays SC2 and his legendary 5 move X.

Say what you will about YOU PERSONALLY disliking the fact that they use only 5 moves, but please get this bullshit out of here that it's brainless.

-Idle
Click to expand...
Wow I must have hit a nerve. Sorry you don't like what I have to say. Do understand that I will say whatever I want and nothing you say will affect that. If you don't like it, ignore it. Using only 4-5 moves boils down to simple reaction time, not PLANNING or THINKING. RTD simply has good reaction. With Sophie, you KNOW you can sneak in moves on the opponent, with other characters, you have to take much BIGGER risks with lower reward output.

Nothing you can say otherwise is going to change my mind.
 
Geez, I must've hit a nerve, or you wouldn't be so keen to self-assert.

Every post you've made in this thread just makes me think "This kid knows some stuff, but clearly he overestimates his knowledge and draws conclusions from it that aren't true, probably due to lack of experience."

Most people just say "lol scrub".

Your welcome.

-Idle
 
I was going to say Amy but Bubbles beat me to it. Safer, better mix-ups and also few moves needed to succeed.

@Damn I suck:
First of all You cant just take the "I know I am right and nothing you say will change my mind" stand its childish and it takes away from the validity of your argument.
Second, its bull shit that the best Sophie players only use 4-5 moves 95% of the time. They ALL use at least their top ten moves pretty consistently.
Third, its degrading and ridiculous that you over-simplify Rob's ability to simple reaction time. Yes of course he has GODLY reaction time, but even when using SC2 X he obviously has to think, plan and adapt to his environment and opponent.
 
I think the post on Sophie lacking good mixup is spot on. Yeah, TAS B is amazing and arguably if Soph had good lows it would be unbalanced. But she doesn't. There just isn't much reason to duck against Soph. So if Soph's opponent is playing safe, the only way to get TAS B is to actually do things that are hard and require player skill, i.e. whiff punishing. So you can't just write her off as being brainless. The whole nature of spacing and stepping is very complex and one of the main ways that better players distinguish themselves, despite there only being 8 "moves".
All of the top tier characters have very powerful tools that can be whored out. Getting the maximum performance from the character is still difficult and requires a lot of skill. I.e. even take my comments about Amy, yeah she has some phenomenal tools including most famously 2B+K, but that's not what really makes her amazing. Just like with Soph you need to step and space well to use TAS B, as Amy you need to understand oki inside out and stay on your opponent like shit on velcro every time they go down.
So, Soph has amazing tools on spacing/whiff punish, Amy has amazing tools on oki, but you still need to know how to space/oki really well to be good with these characters.
Personally, I always do fine against Soph with Voldo. I think some mid-level Soph's get confused when there's nothing to punish (Voldo is disgustingly safe), they start back stepping to bait a whiff punish but it's so obvious that I catch them on it. I'm sure though that better Sophs would just be much better at doing all that and would mess me up... because they're better players! Not cause TAS B is crazy.
 
what are you geeks blabering about? it's all about Nightmare and you fuckers know it. The power of darkness, death, destruction, and chaos rules!!! besides Nightmare IS the antagonist of the series, he's suppossed to be sexy and cool, some of the NM good players would agree... right DeathInMyEyes? >=) I still gotta whoop you offline buddy ^^ I might pay a visit one day
 
RIDLEYomega said:
what are you geeks blabering about? it's all about Nightmare and you fuckers know it. The power of darkness, death, destruction, and chaos rules!!! besides Nightmare IS the antagonist of the series, he's suppossed to be sexy and cool, some of the NM good players would agree... right DeathInMyEyes? >=) I still gotta whoop you offline buddy ^^ I might pay a visit one day
Click to expand...
lol oh please, we know both Nightmare and Siegfried lost their sex appeal in SC4. i mean, for Siegfried, he looks like he has cancer in sc4, plus crispin freeman <3 isnt his VA anymore TT-TT. as for Nightmare, he has no midsection, he's uni-gender, and i can barely understand what he's saying in this version. that's why Amy and Voldo are top tier, because namco finds the sex appeal of vampiric jailbait and S&M pedo's irresistible =P
 
senzait said:
I was going to say Amy but Bubbles beat me to it. Safer, better mix-ups and also few moves needed to succeed.

@Damn I suck:
First of all You cant just take the "I know I am right and nothing you say will change my mind" stand its childish and it takes away from the validity of your argument.
Second, its bull shit that the best Sophie players only use 4-5 moves 95% of the time. They ALL use at least their top ten moves pretty consistently.
Third, its degrading and ridiculous that you over-simplify Rob's ability to simple reaction time. Yes of course he has GODLY reaction time, but even when using SC2 X he obviously has to think, plan and adapt to his environment and opponent.
Click to expand...
Since when did I say that I know everything? I am merely stating an opinion. If you don't agree, well then that's your choice.
I respect that you disagree, but I think you misunderstood me. I was merely trying to say that I've made up my mind about it, regardless of what anybody says. It's like a devout christian, he's already made up his mind, and no atheist is going to change his mind. The fact that you think disagree=ignorant, speaks much louder about YOUR maturity.
 
IdleMind said:
Geez, I must've hit a nerve, or you wouldn't be so keen to self-assert.

Every post you've made in this thread just makes me think "This kid knows some stuff, but clearly he overestimates his knowledge and draws conclusions from it that aren't true, probably due to lack of experience."

Most people just say "lol scrub".

Your welcome.

-Idle
Click to expand...
No. the only real nerve being hit is SOPHITIA.

Can a guy have a right to hate someone?

LOL if you think some random guy on the internet I've never met is going to strike a nerve. Trust me, my girlfriend as already beaten you to the punch.

Lack of experience? Cmon man I'm an old school gamer. So someone who's been playing since SC2 has little experience? Right.

And for the record, a kid is not 27 years old. Probably been playing video games since some of you were in diapers. I know I'm not the oldest Calibur player, but don't call me a kid.

Here's an even better solution. Simply ignore me, problem solved right?
 
damn-I-Suck said:
Since when did I say that I know everything? I am merely stating an opinion. If you don't agree, well then that's your choice.
I respect that you disagree, but I think you misunderstood me. I was merely trying to say that I've made up my mind about it, regardless of what anybody says. It's like a devout christian, he's already made up his mind, and no atheist is going to change his mind. The fact that you think disagree=ignorant, speaks much louder about YOUR maturity.
Click to expand...

...First off I never said you said you knew everything (confusing 0_o). There are certain FACTS that go beyond mere opinions, and this is where your argument fails. Anyone can tell me for example the holocaust was just a conspiracy that never happened and be entitled to their opinion. Just cause they have made up their minds about it does not make it true.

Now I would try to argue with a person that told me that, and if after providing a well backed up argument they keep on being stubborn Im going to think they are Ignorant and uneducated on the subject. Wouldn't you?? That has nothing to do with maturity. Just like age is not equivalent to it either.

Im not bashing btw, but you haven't really backed up your view at all. Anyway this is totally digressing from the main topic of this thread.
 
Slayer_X64 said:
lol oh please, we know both Nightmare and Siegfried lost their sex appeal in SC4. i mean, for Siegfried, he looks like he has cancer in sc4, plus crispin freeman <3 isnt his VA anymore TT-TT. as for Nightmare, he has no midsection, he's uni-gender, and i can barely understand what he's saying in this version. that's why Amy and Voldo are top tier, because namco finds the sex appeal of vampiric jailbait and S&M pedo's irresistible =P
Click to expand...

oh shut up slay lol you're just jealous Nighty is best looking and more poweful than Siggy, look people agree with me more than with you, that's why I got some "likes" lol and wtf is this about Amy and Voldo? a little 7 year old girl who fucks with her stepdad and some perverted egyptian dude that crawls like a little bitch in pain? lol no, if we're talking about "appealing" it's all about Cassandra and Kilik.... I guess
 
damn-I-Suck said:
Since when did I say that I know everything? I am merely stating an opinion. If you don't agree, well then that's your choice.
I respect that you disagree, but I think you misunderstood me. I was merely trying to say that I've made up my mind about it, regardless of what anybody says. It's like a devout christian, he's already made up his mind, and no atheist is going to change his mind. The fact that you think disagree=ignorant, speaks much louder about YOUR maturity.
Click to expand...

it's not tha bro, it's disagreeing AFTER being proved WRONG

senzait said:
...First off I never said you said you knew everything (confusing 0_o). There are certain FACTS that go beyond mere opinions, and this is where your argument fails. Anyone can tell me for example the holocaust was just a conspiracy that never happened and be entitled to their opinion. Just cause they have made up their minds about it does not make it true.

Now I would try to argue with a person that told me that, and if after providing a well backed up argument they keep on being stubborn Im going to think they are Ignorant and uneducated on the subject. Wouldn't you?? That has nothing to do with maturity. Just like age is not equivalent to it either.

Im not bashing btw, but you haven't really backed up your view at all. Anyway this is totally digressing from the main topic of this thread.
Click to expand...
everyone has the right to think whatever they want yo, it's THEIR CHOICE if they want to accept the truth or not =/ back to you people on topic
 
Back to NM and Sieg, I have to say Sieg's character is just lame in SC4. He looks like a pale German sissy boy. I'm also not crazy about how they did Nightmare to be honest. I guess I'm critical though as a lot of characters I don't appreciate their appearance. I like the old school Astaroth a lot, Yoshi is well done. I can't actually think of many others.
As for actually playing them. I don't have a ton of trouble with either to be honest. I haven't yet played a Sieg I felt honestly beat me. I very usually beat Sieg, and when I do lose there's usually a lot of whoring of unsafe transitions. Nightmare I mostly feel the same way, but dang Partisan's Nightmare kicked the crap out of me. I guess I would like to see a Sieg played up to that level, until I do it's hard for me to judge.
 
Nightmare is the angry one. Siegfried is the pretty one. This how they cancel each other out. All homo lol.
gyaradosmilotic.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom