1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Angrel... you list is silly and filled with bias. Just cuz Uriel has a good Mina doesn't mean she is top, and for cripes sake? WTF is with your Mitsu and Lizardman placements?

I think you need to stop playing online, lolz!

cha cha
 
Angrel-San said:
Well, on 1.03:

Top Tier-Kilik, Setsuka, Voldo, Yoshimitsu, Mina, Algol

Upper Mid-Cassandra, Hilde, Astaroth, Ivy

Mid-Siegfried, Cervantes, Taki, Amy, Yunsung, Xianghua

Low Mid-Rock, Starkiller, Nightmare, Tira, Raphael, Mitsurugi, Sophitia, Talim

Low Tier-Maxi, Zasalamel, Lizardman

Good thing is they are all tourney worthy. IMO, this game needs like 1, maybe 2 more balance patches and it would be perfect.
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Please dont make things up. Thank you.
 
Artilust said:
Please dont make things up. Thank you.
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Vayase a la mierda.

Cha-LOL! I don't like online at all. 90% when I'm on is because Uriel called me to get on to joke and chill and stuff. The other 10% is when I'm extremely bored.

And neither Mitsurugi nor Lizardman are as great post patch.
 
Mina and Kilik as top and Lizzy as bottom are laughable.

It takes a HUGE leap to say "And neither Mitsurugi nor Lizardman are as great post patch" and equate that with Lizzy dropping to bottom tier. I suppose CFs getting weakened across the board and losing a few points of damage off of an already technically ESCAPABLE juggle drops him 3 or 4 tiers, huh?

As for Mitsu, he only lost like 3 points of damage off of a couple of moves and like two frame traps can be escaped by teching right.

If you want to say that they're lower than most think then that's fine, but honestly, putting Mitsu and Lizzy lower than Tira, Raph, Talim, and above all ROCK, is pure and utter absurdity. As is Mina at top who has practically NOTHING to stop opponents who stay in her face.

Much like Hilde, Mina's game REQUIRES that she space effectively and spacing and evading in general has been nerfed in SC4. And she doesn't even get NEAR the damage or ring outs that Hilde can get for correctly spacing and evading.

You're tier list contains more laughs per word than just about any posted thus far.


And please, elaborate on how time proved you right in previous Soul Caliburs. I'd love to hear it.
 
Haha, I dunno what to say man. You severely overrate CF ability, and completely ignore mix up games, oki games and safety.

What makes Mina top tier? Her lows are all blockable on reaction, she has lack luster in-close tools, and has to work really hard to keep characters at tip range. Her CF game also took a hit, her throw range stinks, most of her quick attacks are HIGH and her damage isn't anything special. FC 1B is amazing long range, 4K,B is a great combo starter, but her mix ups are easy to see man.

Mitsu should be HIGHLY rated if Mina is going to get such treatment. Mitsu has a SICK up close game, better damage, better throw games, better oki and IMO great options from his stances. You have not proven to me that you choice to place him low was NOT a bias decision based on your clear HATRED for him :)

(in flashchat) We went over the fact that Lizardman is better than Rock in EVERY WAY. Your defense is that Rock's JF PT is a good tool, which it IS. But Lizardman has better guaranteed damage, is far SAFER, has better gap closing and spacing ability, better mix ups and a BETTER throw game, and all Rock HAS is throws, and I think Lizardman has an easier time throwing opponents and mixing up throws. Any launcher Lizardman gets, he gets 66K or 3A+B, both good damage, and decent ring out. Rock's best options are KD into a BREAKABLE groundthrow mix up. LM's 3B-into anything, does more than Rock's 2A+K into a ground throw.
Look Lizardman's crawl is a BIT overrrated, yes, it's very stoppable. But I mean shit, his 1K is TC and sweeps you into a free mix up from it, mind you if I do LC A, and your retaliate I have an auto-parry option from it, if you don't....free mix up, it's not like you can't play mad mind games on wake up with it. It has great range too. If Rock wants to KD into wakes he has JF PT or an exremely short range 2B+K/sweep mix to mess with, to me that doesn't beat ANY of lizard's options.
Let's also NOT rule out Lizardmans ability to turtle and his great range on 66A to stop ANY kind of mid-range step games.
Lizardman also has great CH damage off things like 66B+K, a quake stun UB and better speed. HE IS A SUPERIOR CHARACTER!!! DAMNIT EXPLAIN YOURSELF!

lol

cha cha
 
Cha-I don't understand if you mean overall Lizardman or the Rock vs. Lizardman matchup.

I'll talk to you about that and Mina and Mitsurugi next time I see you on chat.

Rico-I'm glad I helped you laugh then. Glad to be of service.
 
He means that Lizzy is in every way the superior character compared to Rock.

As I said, his placement lower than Rock is simply baffling.

It'd be like me putting Maxi above Mitsu or Amy. I love that damn Elvis Impersonator but his tools are crap.
 
So is there a consensus on Sophitia vs. cassandra yet?

It seems like more people rank Sophitia higher but the people who claim Cassandra is better are much more adamant.
 
I think it's kind of a tossup between the sisters.

Sophie is definitely more scrub friendly with her many canned mid-low-mid combos, while Cass takes a bit more effort since she really doesn't have anything like that.

Whenever I meet a good Sophie with my Cass, it can go either way really, especially online.

Offline, I think Sophie has a very slight edge, though some think otherwise, but I bet that's just because Sophie is more popular than Cass, thus people play vs her more, thus people know her moveset and properties and can counter them accordingly better than they do Cass, leading them to think Cass is superior.

Sophie simply punishes better, is easier to train your opponent to block a certain way, her 6B is fast and hits mid, while Cass's hits high and is only slightly faster, her 236B/236236B is faster and tech crouches unlike Cass's and the double 236 stab punisher is also pretty safe spammage (not to mention 236236A mixup, whereas none of Cass's options out of 236 are safe to spam), her super-GI-everything aGI is better than any single aGI Cass has (though Cass has more aGI variety), and her 66B, while linear, has gobs of range and power, is fast, launches, and most importantly, hits grounded, while Cass's similar range/speed/usage move 66A+B does not launch nor does it hit grounded, making it nowhere near as useful for oki. Overall, she is easier to win with than Cass, therefore Cass has to work ever so slightly harder and thus, I believe, is at a slight disadvantage in this matchup.
 
Mina above just about everyone?

HAH! HAHAHAHAH...haha...oh. Man, wow. You've got some crazy thoughts running around in that head of yours. While I disagree that all of her lows are reactionable--I actually think she has some very nice mix-up games--I do agree, as any Mina player with a lick of sense should, that she has nothing up close. 3bK is kind of nice for a quick push-out, but isn't really safe or anything. FC 1KK is also decent, but 'decent' is really the only praise it'll get; it's not insanely fast and very reactionable if you know what to look for. Aside from that, it's 1BB, 4A if you're feeling wild, AAB, BBB (kind of), and that's about it.
 
RedDjinn said:
Also I hate to say this but I dont think Yoshi is top... Maybe 1st place of the Upper Mid tiers but not Top anymore... Like he said though this game is awesomely balanced I think it will eventually be one of the best soul caliburs ever....
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I think you post just to drive me insane. You argued w/me for pages and pages (on both sites) how I was wrong saying Yoshi isn't top tier and the people I play "haven't unlocked his full potential". Thank you for seeing the light. Yoshimitsu in the right hands can beat any char in the game, period. He has everything he needs. He's piss easy to start off with, but not easy to master at all. I can see a Yoshi winning a major, but I just don't see him having the tools and easier matchups like other chars do.

Kilik and Mina are not top tier. Not even close. And I imagine not everybody has a great Ivy in their area, but she is top, for sure. Some people have lost their minds around here...
 
Darago said:
Mina above just about everyone?

HAH! HAHAHAHAH...haha...oh. Man, wow. You've got some crazy thoughts running around in that head of yours. While I disagree that all of her lows are reactionable--I actually think she has some very nice mix-up games--I do agree, as any Mina player with a lick of sense should, that she has nothing up close. 3bK is kind of nice for a quick push-out, but isn't really safe or anything. FC 1KK is also decent, but 'decent' is really the only praise it'll get; it's not insanely fast and very reactionable if you know what to look for. Aside from that, it's 1BB, 4A if you're feeling wild, AAB, BBB (kind of), and that's about it.
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44A and 11A look EXACTLY THE SAME, but one's a low and one's a mid.

8A+B is made of epic and win.

3bK is good on hit, horrible on block. 6AK is decent close in, so is 6B+K.

BB is good mid-ranged. And yeah, 1BB_A_K are decent too, and 4A is great close-in.

That's all she really has. I'd give her bottom-mid.
 
Nori said:
Kilik and Mina are not top tier. Not even close. And I imagine not everybody has a great Ivy in their area, but she is top, for sure. Some people have lost their minds around here...
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You always come with the backed up, not everybody has a x character in their area to somehow give you "more validity". So what? Texas is now the only place with good players? It's really disrespectful and annoying too.

I main Ivy and I fail to see where she is top now when she's unsafe everywhere but Sword and she lost damage points in lots of things including her basic throws, Whip is just a shameful husk of what it used to be, Coiled 214B is now more unsafe when before it was a viable tactic and made Coiled more threatening. Sword is still good even if BT A+B has been nerfed and CS range. Yes, CS range is nerfed as fuck. Luckily, Sword has some tricks to keep Ivy viable. But the overall weakening of her other stances (Serpent wasn't good pre-patch anyway) inevitably drops her as most of her good stuff is in Sword and you have to get close, limiting her whereas before, you could use the other 2 stances and be succesful. I'm no Link with Ivy (I think no one will be, Link is the man with Ivy and one of my favorite players too) but those nerfs are there and are clear to see.

Mina not good? LOL! You mustn't have a great Mina in your area.

Kilik, not good?

Nori, if I lost my mind, you're just plain in Kindergarden.

Kilik not good...ROFLMAO.
 
KoshTheKoala said:
44A and 11A look EXACTLY THE SAME, but one's a low and one's a mid.

8A+B is made of epic and win.

3bK is good on hit, horrible on block. 6AK is decent close in, so is 6B+K.

BB is good mid-ranged. And yeah, 1BB_A_K are decent too, and 4A is great close-in.

That's all she really has. I'd give her bottom-mid.
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You're missing low throws, an excellent FC game, a nasty wakeup and oki game with her jumps of doom, great damage and safety at tip range and one of the best (if not the best) CF games.
 
Angrel-San said:
You always come with the backed up, not everybody has a x character in their area to somehow give you "more validity". So what? Texas is now the only place with good players? It's really disrespectful and annoying too.

Mina not good? LOL! You mustn't have a great Mina in your area.

Kilik, not good?

Nori, if I lost my mind, you're just plain in Kindergarden.

Kilik not good...ROFLMAO.
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I rate Mina and Kilik about the same, each better at different things. Neither is any better then mid tier. You can win with them, but hard against some chars like Scrubitia and Ivy (who just rapes Mina for free- it's her worst matchup)
 
Nori said:
I think you post just to drive me insane. You argued w/me for pages and pages (on both sites) how I was wrong saying Yoshi isn't top tier and the people I play "haven't unlocked his full potential". Thank you for seeing the light. Yoshimitsu in the right hands can beat any char in the game, period. He has everything he needs. He's piss easy to start off with, but not easy to master at all. I can see a Yoshi winning a major, but I just don't see him having the tools and easier matchups like other chars do.

Kilik and Mina are not top tier. Not even close. And I imagine not everybody has a great Ivy in their area, but she is top, for sure. Some people have lost their minds around here...
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You know i do... LoL i still think he can beat anyone... Hes top tier in the right hands but overall i will agree he's mid tier... Doesnt matter anyways... I'm playing sophy now ;) lol and kilik is good... i'll agree with angrel there... Mina not so much... Ivy defintely top tier... has too many tools not to be... and Like Nori said... probably not everyone has one like Link in their area.... and Angrel just because you main Ivy doesnt mean you can do the stuff Link can...
 
Nori didn't say Kilik isn't good, just not top tier.

And seriously, Nori knows his stuff and probably has an infinitely more diverse playing field of opponents than you.

I mean, I try to be proficient in everything I say on this forum but I just don't have the competition here in PA to make outrageous claims about some things.

I know the characters I play as. Some are good (Lizzy and Setsuka), some aren't quite so good (Tira and Maxi). If strong players coming on here and saying Sets or Lizzy were low tier, I'd have to take a step back and actually LOOK at if what they're saying was true. I mean, at first I though Maxi wasn't low, but as the evidence kept mounting, it became clear that the forum consensus was quite right.

So what I'm saying is, if enough players (and GOOD players) think you're wrong, guess what, you just might be.

Anyway, you're arguing and list writing is worthless unless you plan to actually argue HOW Mina and Killik can be top tier. I'm sure people here will be glad to offer counterpoints to everything you say.
 
Tiers just seems like a redundant conversation. Any character can win IN THE RIGHT HANDS. The idea of tiers looks like it should be a list of people that are easier to win with without knowing what you're doing.

You could easily take two expert players one Rock and one Sophi, and watch Rock simply impact every stupid move Sophi does, break the grabs, and punish accordingly. This is all theory of course because that scenario is highly unlikely and this SC is fairly well balanced.

Obviously since my play has been limited to scouring XBL for good connections while trying to find decent offline comp, anyone here can easily write this post off as uninformed or lacking experience.

Change topic: As an Ivy player since 2 (skipping 3 for obvious reasons) I have only encountered (so far) a small number of Ivy's worth playing (nofacekiller - XBL) so Link, if you're paying attention, and have XBL, add me!
 
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