Official Ban Discussion Thread

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Like I said, I don't have a problem with Algol. Whether Oof's Algol is scrubby or top tier, I beat him fair and square, twice. Please don't make it sound like I want him ban because I don't want to fight him.

My only concern is for new players who are just using this character to win easily. It has been done before and caused eyebrows to turn. That or they lose to an Algol player and find it unfair.

I'm a Yoshimitsu player and i created a guide thread and we all share anti strats for him. You can check that section and you will see that we don't mind sharing. I don't think it's about putting his gameplay and style in a silver platter. I didn't ask for that. I mentioned that you SM players should EDUCATE people about the character. Right now, i am approaching this manner in a professional way and you guys are all acting like kids that got their game taken away from them. Sailor Mercury players seems to be too defensive when it comes to their character being criticized. He is already allowed so that discussion is over. Nothing will change that now. Like I said Cha Cha's post verified it.

If there is a reason to ban him then we will find it but as of right now, HE IS NOT BANNED. So no need to start that conversation again.

Like they said chill. I will also recommend to not take this discussion to heart. It's not like Algol is your main character anyway. So no need to continue this conversation. If somebody could close this that would be great. This was settled last week.

NeoRussell
 
Not closing this. The purpose of this thread is not to decide whether Algol is or is not Banned.
Its just a compilation out there for any tournament organizer to refer to (be referred to) if necessary.

IMO, this will not be settled until Most SCIV communities have synchronized their decision on Algol. (When I say most, I mean we won't bother if like 4 or 5 tournament organizers are still allergic to bubbles.)

This isn't just about Nationals you know.
 
Jaxel - thats good in theory, but algol just dosent have time to bubble at you, step around you (especially with his decreased walk and step speed) and THEN apply appropriate pressure. the bubble trap/mixup tactic only works when there are a couple bubbles preventing you from stepping easily, and he just dosent have the time to fire those bubbles, get around to the side and STILL have time to throw in a Low/mid/throw to fluster you. Besides, bubbles can be blocked high or low, and they dissapear if algol attempts a throw. The pressure here is all in the head. The ONLY thing great about this tactic is throwing in a guard crush move while someone blocks the bubbles, and even thats only minor advantage.



neorussell said:
Like I said, I don't have a problem with Algol. Whether Oof's Algol is scrubby or top tier, I beat him fair and square, twice. Please don't make it sound like I want him ban because I don't want to fight him.

My only concern is for new players who are just using this character to win easily. It has been done before and caused eyebrows to turn. That or they lose to an Algol player and find it unfair.

I'm a Yoshimitsu player and i created a guide thread and we all share anti strats for him. You can check that section and you will see that we don't mind sharing. I don't think it's about putting his gameplay and style in a silver platter. I didn't ask for that. I mentioned that you SM players should EDUCATE people about the character. Right now, i am approaching this manner in a professional way and you guys are all acting like kids that got their game taken away from them. Sailor Mercury players seems to be too defensive when it comes to their character being criticized. He is already allowed so that discussion is over. Nothing will change that now. Like I said Cha Cha's post verified it.

If there is a reason to ban him then we will find it but as of right now, HE IS NOT BANNED. So no need to start that conversation again.

Like they said chill. I will also recommend to not take this discussion to heart. It's not like Algol is your main character anyway. So no need to continue this conversation. If somebody could close this that would be great. This was settled last week.

NeoRussell
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I wasnt talking about OOFs algol, I was talking about your additude on the subject. I think OOFs algol is a pretty good representation of a good algol. Strong, but highly beatable (no offense meant OOF <3)
As fpr your concern over people looking for the easy win by picking algol, if people wanted the easy win, whats to stop them from picking, sophie, cass, or yoshi? I think that these characters are top to bottom better than algol in almost every way, so why is there concern over algol getting picked and not the characters BETTER than him.

As far as chilling out, I agree that some people get far to hot headed on this, and for the record, please dont assume that this is getting taken to heart, because it really isnt. But dont make it seem like were being unreasonable. You (at one time) are calling for bans on our character, for seemingly no reason. How are we supposed to act. Also, youre right that i dont main algol, I dont even really play him much, not to say i cant. But no one is going to rob me the right to play him IF I CHOOSE, especially over such childish reasons. Take a cue from Jaxel and Cha who came here to get a feel for the algol banned/not banned issue with a calm and logical perspective. All of your posts have been powered with personal preference, and this issue isnt about personal preference. Just because you dont think people should play a character for the 'easy wins' dosent make it true. Some characters are better than others and some people are going to want to play them. Its sad, because this ISNT really the case with algol.

I dont mean to come off as cross or angry or rude here, or in any of my posts. But it absolutly blows my mind that people have ANY sort of problem with algol at all. Personally, I think he isnt very good. I think his bubble game can get him punished SO badly, and without it he has a hard time, being most of his setups are pretty obvious. Not to say he's bad, just very straightforward and easy to beat.
 
Guys, the way its going to have to go is this:

If Algol (for visible or not visible reasons atm) keeps statistically winning in high level/high pressure atmospheres vs experienced players, then we can start to add up all the variables that are allowing his win, and see if they add up to ignorance on knowledge or just truly something that doesn't belong in SC competitive play.

Right now the reality is: he is not banned. Nats are in 09. We have until January to explore Algol's extremities in high level play and as a community, come to the conclusion that he has no place in legal tourney play.

Right now both sides claim to have compelling evidence to refute the other side, but no one has really shown it. I think we just need more people playing as him, and playing against him before we can make any real decisions.

good work so far.

cha cha
 
Tiamat said:
I dunno about that.....
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Tiamat: Isn't your main Nightmare? I guess I was wrong. I should always see an Algol player out of you for any tournament cause using anyone else would void what you just said.

BLDave: Yeah Algol players do get Hot headed when it comes to this. I guess it's reasonable since their Secondary Character is being criticized.

"But it absolutly blows my mind that people have ANY sort of problem with algol at all. Personally, I think he isnt very good."

I think its because you use him. You know what he can do and what he is capable of.

Like I said, my mind will not change. I feel he is out of place. I already know his tricks but that's because I played him enough times. Really, no need for any discussion about ALLOWING or BANNING again. Regardless of how I feel, he was already voted as ALLOWED by my fellow organizers until further notice.

NeoRussell
 
AkazukinChaCha said:
Guys, the way its going to have to go is this:

If Algol (for visible or not visible reasons atm) keeps statistically winning in high level/high pressure atmospheres vs experienced players, then we can start to add up all the variables that are allowing his win, and see if they add up to ignorance on knowledge or just truly something that doesn't belong in SC competitive play.

Right now the reality is: he is not banned. Nats are in 09. We have until January to explore Algol's extremities in high level play and as a community, come to the conclusion that he has no place in legal tourney play.

Right now both sides claim to have compelling evidence to refute the other side, but no one has really shown it. I think we just need more people playing as him, and playing against him before we can make any real decisions.

good work so far.

cha cha
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aso what happenas if we see sophie or cass or yoshi or ROCK consistently getting high level wins. are they on the table for bans too?
i haven't heard compelling evidence for his ban yet. the BEST ive heard is a personal opinion of him being 'out of place' while ive given quite a few reasons against his ban. I realize that he is legal At the moment, but wouldn't it suffice to say: "legal until proven broken, same goes for ANY character?"

Russel - Some people main algol. not saying me, but some people. why even attempt to ban their character just because you think he is 'out of place' isnt yoshi technically out of place in SC too? being he is a tekken character?
Yes, i use him, and i fight him pretty frequently. Ive also learned to get around his tricks. ive also had to learn to get around all the other characters tricks too. I get the sence that you know he isnt broken. Regardless of what has been decided 'for now' what is your issue with algol? is it simply the fact that he looks like he could be a (insetr random J-RPG) boss? if you dont want to continue here, feel free to send your answer in a PM, but id like to get to the bottom of it, because right now all ive heard from anyone calling for a ban is either they think he is to good, which i REALLY dont think to be true, or your stance, that he just dosent fit in, which is a matter based on tastes.
 
BLDave: Legal until proven broken, DOES hold true for any character, so if Rock is PROVEN to be broken (lets not confuse winning a lot with broken), he will be banned.

My loose definition for broken in this game:

A character who is able to win, with a mechanic/glitch/move that warrants many advantages outside the scope of the games design or acceptable competitive play. The technique deemed broken, must not have an easy counter, be incredibly low risk/high reward in documented high level play, glitches the engine in some way, provides possibilities for a near instant win/infinite (in some cases the move or infinite can just be banned) OR again, yield advantages that nullifies a characters ability to compete or part of the game's intended VS battle design.

Of course it's not even black & white from there. But no need to get sarcastic about Sophie/Cassy, if for whatever reason they turn out broke, they will be banned too. Algol gets treated the same as any character, in my book.

We all seem to be going in circles here. He is legal until we all can observe something broke with him.

cha cha
 
BLDave said:
aso what happenas if we see sophie or cass or yoshi or ROCK consistently getting high level wins. are they on the table for bans too?
i haven't heard compelling evidence for his ban yet. the BEST ive heard is a personal opinion of him being 'out of place' while ive given quite a few reasons against his ban. I realize that he is legal At the moment, but wouldn't it suffice to say: "legal until proven broken, same goes for ANY character?"

Russel - Some people main algol. not saying me, but some people. why even attempt to ban their character just because you think he is 'out of place' isnt yoshi technically out of place in SC too? being he is a tekken character?
Yes, i use him, and i fight him pretty frequently. Ive also learned to get around his tricks. ive also had to learn to get around all the other characters tricks too. I get the sence that you know he isnt broken. Regardless of what has been decided 'for now' what is your issue with algol? is it simply the fact that he looks like he could be a (insetr random J-RPG) boss? if you dont want to continue here, feel free to send your answer in a PM, but id like to get to the bottom of it, because right now all ive heard from anyone calling for a ban is either they think he is to good, which i REALLY dont think to be true, or your stance, that he just dosent fit in, which is a matter based on tastes.
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When I mean out of place, i mean the Mercury Bubbles. I mentioned before that SC was a Weapon Fighting Game. It's new that they have a character with projectiles but I cannot accept in this type of game. Again this is my opinion.

Your right i do have a problem with Algol. To me he is a scrubby/just to piss off character. Kind of like choosing the mishima's in Tekken Tag. They are overpowered and it's hard to get around them. Fine, he is not good close combat but that really depends on the player. Again, to me he is too scrubby and I have always hated players who choose the easy way to win. That's just me. If I see an Algol player and all you do is 3 moves, my respect for you as a player goes down the drain. If you use Algol and you show me that you actually learned and practiced with him, then i don't have a problem.

This is how i've always feel with Fighting games. Some of you may not agree but that's my opinion.

NeoRussell
 
neorussell said:
When I mean out of place, i mean the Mercury Bubbles. I mentioned before that SC was a Weapon Fighting Game. It's new that they have a character with projectiles but I cannot accept in this type of game. Again this is my opinion.

Your right i do have a problem with Algol. To me he is a scrubby/just to piss off character. Kind of like choosing the mishima's in Tekken Tag. They are overpowered and it's hard to get around them. Fine, he is not good close combat but that really depends on the player. Again, to me he is too scrubby and I have always hated players who choose the easy way to win. That's just me. If I see an Algol player and all you do is 3 moves, my respect for you as a player goes down the drain. If you use Algol and you show me that you actually learned and practiced with him, then i don't have a problem.

This is how i've always feel with Fighting games. Some of you may not agree but that's my opinion.

NeoRussell
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When I mean out of place, i mean the Super Dragon Fly. I mentioned before that SC was a Ground Based Fighting Game. It's new that they have a character with flight but I cannot accept in this type of game. Again this is my opinion.

Your right i do have a problem with Yoshi. To me he is a scrubby/just to piss off character. Kind of like choosing Yoshi in Tekken Tag. He is strange and it's hard to get around him. Again, to me he is too scrubby and I have always hated players who choose the easy way to win. That's just me. If I see an Yoshi player and all you do is 3 moves, my respect for you as a player goes down the drain. If you use Yoshi and you show me that you actually learned and practiced with him, then i don't have a problem.

This is how i've always feel with Fighting games. Some of you may not agree but that's my opinion.
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not how i really feel, but ya see what i did thar. The funny thing is, its just as valid as your point. It might be even more so, being the Mishimas in tekken are REALLY good/best/whatever (not a TTT player :) ) where Algol isn't that god tier stuff.

There is no easy way to win in this game. You can play Sophie, i can play rock and its STILL not going to be an easy win. It might be an easier win than if i played whoever else, but that dosent mean its easy, and it also dosent mean that i will lose (I don't mean specifically me and you, i mean 2 random players, not meant to be a personal attack <333). Some characters are inherently 'simpler' than other others, but just because you have to pull off JF's like a mad man with Setsuka and not with Kilik, doesn't mean that Kilik is the 'scrubby' choice.

Also, seriously, who can play a 3 move anything. Algol cant, not if he hopes to do ANYTHING. Algol is one character who really has to use a LOT of his moves to be good at all. Even if someone could play a very limited move Algol, who would get beat by him? Not me certainly, not most decent players either. Is this really a point of contention?

Sounds like you have a problem with scrubs in general and this has noting to do with Algol

(FYI, Cervy had projectiles in sc3. Ivys sword might as well be a projectile. Abyss had a projectile.)


Cha - I wasn't being sarcastic about the sohie/cass thing, it just seemed like you were saying if we see Algol getting wins, were going to look at banning him, which is kind of.....silly? But very well said and very reasonable. That's all that i am asking, is for Algol to be given,and to keep being given in the future, the same treatment as all the other characters.

We are going in circles, but the scenery is nice. I'm trying to get to the bottom of why people, more than just people that post here, want Algol banned PAST the reason the he is 'too good' or 'broke'
 
BLDave said:
When I mean out of place, i mean the Super Dragon Fly. I mentioned before that SC was a Ground Based Fighting Game. It's new that they have a character with flight but I cannot accept in this type of game. Again this is my opinion.

Your right i do have a problem with Yoshi. To me he is a scrubby/just to piss off character. Kind of like choosing Yoshi in Tekken Tag. He is strange and it's hard to get around him. Again, to me he is too scrubby and I have always hated players who choose the easy way to win. That's just me. If I see an Yoshi player and all you do is 3 moves, my respect for you as a player goes down the drain. If you use Yoshi and you show me that you actually learned and practiced with him, then i don't have a problem.

This is how i've always feel with Fighting games. Some of you may not agree but that's my opinion.
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not how i really feel, but ya see what i did thar. The funny thing is, its just as valid as your point. It might be even more so, being the Mishimas in tekken are REALLY good/best/whatever (not a TTT player :) ) where Algol isn't that god tier stuff.

There is no easy way to win in this game. You can play Sophie, i can play rock and its STILL not going to be an easy win. It might be an easier win than if i played whoever else, but that dosent mean its easy, and it also dosent mean that i will lose (I don't mean specifically me and you, i mean 2 random players, not meant to be a personal attack <333). Some characters are inherently 'simpler' than other others, but just because you have to pull off JF's like a mad man with Setsuka and not with Kilik, doesn't mean that Kilik is the 'scrubby' choice.

Also, seriously, who can play a 3 move anything. Algol cant, not if he hopes to do ANYTHING. Algol is one character who really has to use a LOT of his moves to be good at all. Even if someone could play a very limited move Algol, who would get beat by him? Not me certainly, not most decent players either. Is this really a point of contention?

Sounds like you have a problem with scrubs in general and this has noting to do with Algol

(FYI, Cervy had projectiles in sc3. Ivys sword might as well be a projectile. Abyss had a projectile.)


Cha - I wasn't being sarcastic about the sohie/cass thing, it just seemed like you were saying if we see Algol getting wins, were going to look at banning him, which is kind of.....silly? But very well said and very reasonable. That's all that i am asking, is for Algol to be given,and to keep being given in the future, the same treatment as all the other characters.

We are going in circles, but the scenery is nice. I'm trying to get to the bottom of why people, more than just people that post here, want Algol banned PAST the reason the he is 'too good' or 'broke'
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You copying my paragraph just made me question your intelligence towards this game. What was that suppose to do? That was just a stupid post on your end. Yoshimitsu has always been in Soul Calibur games, learn your history. Why would he be out of place if he was already in all of the Soul Calibur series. Ground Based Game, please learn your history. People have been jumping way higher than normal ever since Soul Blade.
It also looks like, you don't know shit about Tekken. I referenced those characters because they are easy win characters. You comparing yoshimitsu with them, what are you on crack? I then referenced them as Algol in SC series. Really easy characters and people just learn a few things and they think its enough to win. You asked why I hated people who use Algol right? I gave you an answer. Like I said, I hate players who don't know shit about their characters and just get by with half life combos. That was my concern with this character. Not about what he can do but what he is capable of doing in the wrong scrubby hands.

I mentioned this before, all of those characters that has projectiles take time to come out. So don't even compare them with Algol's Mercury Bubbles. They cannot move freely while Algol's have many properties.

I already said he is Allowed, it was not decided by me. I was against him being allowed but during the vote with fellow my organisers, there was no reason to. I STATED THAT IN MY OPINION HE DOES NOT BELONG. That's is my opinion so proving me wrong will not change that status he is on. I already STATED that I accepted him being allowed. My main concern is scrubs using him for easy win. That was my concern. Why do you keep addressing other things? Can you please read what i wrote next time and stop the stupidity. I'm pretty sure your smarter than this.

To sum it up just in case you missed what I wrote because you did last time:
NeoRussell = Accepts Algol being Allowed
NeoRussell = hates players that use Algol for an easy win.

NeoRussell
 
Russ, why get so worked up over this? We got forever and a day to prove this guy is broke, and I hope for your sake they do.

For the record I don't really care if he will be banned or not. I learned a way around a lot of his stuff, and if he is banned *shrug*, if he isn't I will play what I feel is an equally cheap character and counter best I can..

The whole point of this thread was to state you simply cannot ban a character for being different, new and good (or annoying). Plain and simple. Beyond that, it just becomes personal preference, and guess what? Everyone has an opinion, not gonna change.

With guys like you and Oof on the case, I'm sure a bannable glitchy thing will be found with this guy sooner or later. Keep on trucikin'!

cha cha
 
AkazukinChaCha said:
Russ, why get so worked up over this? We got forever and a day to prove this guy is broke, and I hope for your sake they do.

For the record I don't really care if he will be banned or not. I learned a way around a lot of his stuff, and if he is banned *shrug*, if he isn't I will play what I feel is an equally cheap character and counter best I can..

The whole point of this thread was to state you simply cannot ban a character for being different, new and good (or annoying). Plain and simple. Beyond that, it just becomes personal preference, and guess what? Everyone has an opinion, not gonna change.

With guys like you and Oof on the case, I'm sure a bannable glitchy thing will be found with this guy sooner or later. Keep on trucikin'!

cha cha
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Brian: I'm not worked up. I just really hate scrubby characters for some reason. Like a dad with an unwanted child. I also have no prob playing against him. I'm using him at the moment so let's see what i can come up with. Right now Algol is being given an image of cheapness and scrubby (mostly by me). I want to prove to people that he can be used effectively. I guess Oof did a number on me one day with this character. Blame him. LOL

Algol = Not Banned

NeoRussell
 
neorussell said:
You copying my paragraph just made me question your intelligence towards this game. What was that suppose to do? That was just a stupid post on your end.
NeoRussell
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Let me get this straight. Im trying to hold a light hearted and mature discussion about why people dont like and want to ban algol. You seem to be one of the few people who have no problem letting this board know how ya feel, and good for you, I think more people NEED to voice their opinions on topics like this one, because it can only help the community grow. Then you fire back and be insulting to me? Especially after I made it a point to say that I am not personally attacking you? How childish.

Yoshimitsu has always been in Soul Calibur games, learn your history. Why would he be out of place if he was already in all of the Soul Calibur series. Ground Based Game, please learn your history. People have been jumping way higher than normal ever since Soul Blade.

yup, im aware, however he was in tekken first, although thats not REALLY the point i was making. Yoshi can fly. Everyone else is bound by gravity. Soul calibur IS ground based. Just because you can jump dosent mean that you dont spend 99% of the time glued to the ground. Thats what ground based means. An air based game would be one where you spend most of your time in the air, something akin to old school psychic force ( bad, i know) or arguably MvC2.

It also looks like, you don't know shit about Tekken. I referenced those characters because they are easy win characters. You comparing yoshimitsu with them, what are you on crack? I then referenced them as Algol in SC series.

Learn to read, I think I stated that in my post. However i didnt say yoshi was too good, i said he was too strange. Its called satire. very effective for pointing out things like logical errors and the like. The intent of the repost was to show you i could post that same paragraph about any character in the game by changing just a few words. The intent was to say 'hey, being different isnt algol specific'. As far as easy win characters? Algol isnt.

You asked why I hated people who use Algol right? I gave you an answer. Like I said, I hate players who don't know shit about their characters and just get by with half life combos. That was my concern with this character. Not about what he can do but what he is capable of doing in the wrong scrubby hands.

Nope, you did not give me an answer. You said you dont like scrubby players, who only use 3 moves. That has nothing to do with Algol. I can play anyone in this game and use 3 moves. it wont work, but it can be done. It wont work for Algol either.

I already said he is Allowed, it was not decided by me. I was against him being allowed but during the vote with fellow my organizers, there was no reason to. I STATED THAT IN MY OPINION HE DOES NOT BELONG. That's is my opinion so proving me wrong will not change that status he is on. I already STATED that I accepted him being allowed.

Yes, however i wasnt trying to prove you wrong or anything like that. All i want is to hear WHY you think what you think. Its called discussion, and believe it or not it doesnt HAVE to be a pissing contest.


To sum it up just in case you missed what I wrote because you did last time:
NeoRussell = Accepts Algol being Allowed
NeoRussell = hates players that use Algol for an easy win.



I didn't miss anything. I just wanted reasons behind the statements. Its easy to be irrational when no one questions you.
we know you accept he isnt banned, you've said it tons of times. Riddle me this though;
Do you also hate the characters that are better than Algol? If Sophie is better than him, than she = an easier win. So why not hate Sophie? Do you really think Algol is an easy win? I sure as hell dont think any character in this game gets an easy win over any other in high level play.

Its a shame this couldn't be a calm discussion instead of 6th grade.
 
AkazukinChaCha said:
Take it to pm's gentlemen. This topic is over for now.

cha cha
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BLdave: Copying my paragraph did not look mature on your end. Was just a waste of time on yours actually. I'm not going to go at it with you. Let's just end this discussion because it's straying far away from the real thing. I've had a few things like this before so hopefully this ends it.

I have nothing against you but we just have two different opinions and that's not going to change. I say Algol is scrubby, you say his not. I show my opinion and if people listen, great. If they don't does not matter. Two unmovable mountains. No need to continue.

ALGOL is allowed (It was a voting decision). End of discussion.
 
I think the problem is that Algol is a new character with a unique moveset, which requires extra effort to learn to fight against, and thats why it seems like to Russell that a scrub can win with him. But I am confident that if I fight a scrubby Algol they will not beat me. And my Algol isn't scrubby, sure I beat people alot with him because of their lack of knowledge, but that doesn't mean I never spent the time in practice mode to learn combos, setups, and strats with him.

I fought a REALLY good Hilde online the other day. Every move she was doing was a charge, and was killing me with half life combos (worse than Algol), I had NO idea how to fight this "charge" style because I have never experienced it before. Does this mean that she should be put in the same spot as Algol? Or is Algol just being argued here because he is a "boss"? Or is Algol being easier than Hilde really a solid reason to argue what I just said?

Russell, I think you're just so highly against Algol because I can beat you with him most of the time in casuals (not in tourney because my Tourney mindstate isn't as good as yours it seems), and your lack of knowledge on fighting him makes it seem like I'm doing it with no skill. But I believe that if we both know how to fight each others characters properly, that we will be pretty equal in Algol Vs. Yoshi. Since we are both players who are pretty much on equal level of competitive play. I highly doubt a scrubby Algol will have any chance against you or any other great player if they take the time to learn how to fight him.

On the other hand I find Yoshi to be really good, and I've met scrubby Yoshi players who gave me a better challenge than scrubby Algol players, due to how good his mixup and wakeup game is. But you don't see me complaining.

Anyways I won't be using Algol in tournament anymore. Not because of any points made here, but because I realize that in order for myself to improve the best I can, I need to stick with my two main characters. "Why be a mediocre player with 5 characters when you can be a good player with 1 or 2"
 
good post oof, you've said precisely what I've been getting at.

Russell - You've once again missed the point. Wasn't an argument to determine his legality, after all, he is legal, you yourself have reminded us at least 10 times. It was simply a discussion to find out why people on the other side of the fence think the way they do. After all, this is the discussion thread for that specific topic, you would think that if someone didn't want to talk ab out it, they wouldn't bother posting here.

Cha- I'm on topic, so respectfully, cram it.
 
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