Raphael General Discussion

New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Check out the video thread where Hudathan is playing a pretty decent Voldo player....he uses plenty of prep game....

...but it's like the Voldo doesn't always 1b out of it, but WHEN HE DOES, it seems like it just shuts down everything prep can do...maybe Prep VE or Prep A+B can work?

I mean....I want this tested by multiple Raphael players to make sure prep really is complete fail vs Voldo. If we have any options...we need to know them. What if I take my Voldo to a tourney and face Trolt, for example? This knowledge will help both my mains equally.

Ruiner
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Prep is good against Voldo sometimes... usually I dislike prep since some people just step it easily (Ivy). Voldo has one of the worst step games in SC4 however, so prep can be an effective tool.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

"If Voldo 1B's just hit him again, he's at disadvantage."

...I don't quite understand this statement. You're saying that after 1b HITS YOU OUT OF PREP, he's STILL at disadvantage enough to guarantee a counter attack o_O? If so, which one? 2A/2K, 6BB/3B?

I know, like PenDragonfall says(we're BOTH Voldo players as well) that Voldo's sidestep is just outright horrible. Prep has to have some usage simply because of that factor alone. The worm beating prep is still situational and not an all encompassing FAILURE.

I'm still feeling that, after you learn to duck all the VE A's, break throws at least 50% of the time, read lows, and punish well, Raphael's just not gonna make it in the long haul tournament environment. o_O...Sorry to sound gloom and doom....I'm trying get better and make everything work. So are you guys.

::Waves American Flag::

Ruiner
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Prep A? It is way faster (almost twice as fast?) What about VE?

Isn't this move pretty slow and able to be reacted against (i25+)?

I've played against a pretty solid Voldo a lot (not Aris, but a strong player) and I don't think this is a terrible matchup (though, of course, it isn't easy)...I'll see if I can't get some more practice against it tuesday night when I get my weekly play time in.

I'm still feeling that, after you learn to duck all the VE A's, break throws at least 50% of the time, read lows, and punish well, Raphael's just not gonna make it in the long haul tournament environment. o_O...Sorry to sound gloom and doom....I'm trying get better and make everything work. So are you guys.
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I just wrote up a huge post to this about proper Raph tourney strat (and lost it...oops) but to sum up...

Raph can win at tournaments...trust me...just keep in mind 1 small rule

you only need to win 2 of 3...find what works, use it, adapt. (this is just basic tourney advice for any character, I can get more into Raph tournament strat if you want, but it gets kinda long, and only takes into consideration my tournament experience, so it may help chatting with other seasoned vets along with me before you make your decision)
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Ruiner - If you get hit out of your prep game by Voldo's 1B, you get to attack again since he's at disadvantage on hit.

Raph can certainly win at tournaments. I placed 9th at Seasons Beatings and 17th at NEC and both were 80+ man tournaments with some of the best players on the east coast. Regardless of what raph doesn't have, he has enough to squeeze out at least a 2 out of 3. When I'm in tournament play I try to pick my brain on what makes raph hard to deal with regarding the match up I'm playing and find the ways to apply it. It's all going to have to come with time and experience but it's something that you must keep in mind even when you're playing casuals.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Raph can win. You just have to be willing to work really freaken hard and learn all of his hit boces.

Prep is good against Voldo sometimes... usually I dislike prep since some people just step it easily (Ivy).
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Yeah totaly agree with this. Not only will Ivy step it, but you will get a lot of love from CS as well.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

raph can win he just requires you to be able to dodge

but his prep is gimmicky IMO as is 22B VE B:B
they both seem like gimmicks am i wrong or what?
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

you are wrong, I would say.

In my experience, these are tried and true...22BBB is NC (with the just frame) and as NCC it is a great punisher off of step...how is that a gimmick?

Prep A is un-interruptable off of some prep transitions...which puts you in control against most characters. Not the greatest move in the world, but not a move that should be forgotten.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

22 ---> VE A

I like this one personally espcially on hit, Its sets up damage and options.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

What's Raphael's main punishers? Here's my next big thing I'm working on: Punishment. Forcing players to pay for abusing moves and taking risks.

6BB is his main high punisher....but what if they can TC out of it even at disadvantage? What else do we know?

236B whiff punisher....true...not bad....

There's gotta be more to Raphael's punishment game though.....so what else do we have o_O
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

piggy said:
you are wrong, I would say.

In my experience, these are tried and true...22BBB is NC (with the just frame) and as NCC it is a great punisher off of step...how is that a gimmick?

Prep A is un-interruptable off of some prep transitions...which puts you in control against most characters. Not the greatest move in the world, but not a move that should be forgotten.
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because the second hit of VE:BB is a free grab
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belovedchild said:
what's raphael's main punishers? Here's my next big thing i'm working on: Punishment. Forcing players to pay for abusing moves and taking risks.

6bb is his main high punisher....but what if they can tc out of it even at disadvantage? What else do we know?

236b whiff punisher....true...not bad....

There's gotta be more to raphael's punishment game though.....so what else do we have o_o
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6k

6b+k

4k
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Hey Belovedchild,

Why not try 2A+B as a punisher for them whiffing and not stepping much? Throwing into some 50/50 is always a good thing to punish with as well. I usually throw in a 3B prep BB or A to punish with some gimmicks.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

4 when you know a high is coming, usually in string or something.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

BelovedChild said:
What's Raphael's main punishers? Here's my next big thing I'm working on: Punishment. Forcing players to pay for abusing moves and taking risks.

6BB is his main high punisher....but what if they can TC out of it even at disadvantage? What else do we know?

236B whiff punisher....true...not bad....

There's gotta be more to Raphael's punishment game though.....so what else do we have o_O
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I'm not a fan of how sometimes 6BB won't combo.

ie ..blocking against a mitsu 66BB (which we coudl have stepped or 4A the 2nd B.. but lets say you block it) the 2nd hit of 6BB won't connect.

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And 22~VE B:B is one of the better NC's out there (very good range for the speed + damage + knockdown), but if you're bad at JF like me, you won't be able to throw this out, instead settling for 22~VE B, which is disadvantageous AND does only half the damage
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

And 22~VE B:B is one of the better NC's out there (very good range for the speed + damage + knockdown), but if you're bad at JF like me, you won't be able to throw this out, instead settling for 22~VE B, which is disadvantageous AND does only half the damage
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Seriously...this move is solid...NCC means guaranteed damage even if you miss the JF (which is an easy JF to mash out), plus the VE transition makes it confirmable (to be sure you hit counter or not, if you can't hit the JF). I'm not saying to throw it out willy-nilly, but if you are a successful stepper and you don't use this when stepping a move, you are not doing enough damage.

because the second hit of VE:BB is a free grab
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If you fear a grab at -19 things should be a lot worse...but again, like I said...practice the JF, or only use this when you hit counter, cause guaranteed is guaranteed...
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

Thanks Angelic, didn't think about these for some reason, though 4K, as a punisher, seems pointless, since 6BB is better and they're both highs. 6B+K is i20...I believe? What moves would I punish with this that I couldn't punish with a 22B VE B:B? I know 6B+K is a decent move, but I'm trying to understand it's punishment value. 6K is a solid mid that I totally forgot in punishment. Thanks.

Why not try 2A+B as a punisher for them whiffing and not stepping much? Throwing into some 50/50 is always a good thing to punish with as well. I usually throw in a 3B prep BB or A to punish with some gimmicks.

Pendragon, 2A+B needs at least mid range to not get punished on reaction, and the way I play Raphael, by the 3rd/4th time playing if their at mid/long range, they're CONSTANTLY stepping to avoid 2A+B/236B/FC 3B pokes. I Keep 2A+B in mind constantly.

"Seriously...this move is solid...NCC means guaranteed damage even if you miss the JF (which is an easy JF to mash out), plus the VE transition makes it confirmable (to be sure you hit counter or not, if you can't hit the JF). I'm not saying to throw it out willy-nilly, but if you are a successful stepper and you don't use this when stepping a move, you are not doing enough damage."

33KB is just as good to me, though I do use 22B VE B:B quite a bit.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

6K is a terrible punisher...and this is coming from the guy who always says to use more 6K ... it doesn't give you food options, or damage...much better off with 6BB (3 frames faster and NC and more damage, and Prep if you want it). 6K is better when you are at slight disadvantage cause the TJ is great against 2A.

I also use 33KB a lot, 22BBB is a bit better though if you can use it right.
 
New to 8wayrun, would like some Raphael help

sigh....

I get the 22B VE B:B off about 50/60% of the time....

....dude this is just bullshit.

Raphael has ONE REALLY GOOD SS COUNTER/PUNISHER GOING FOR HIM, AND IF YOU DON'T JF IT, A HIGH LEVEL PLAYER WILL PUNISH YOU FOR 40+ DAMAGE -_-......HORSESHIT. ARE TAKI'S NINJA CANNONS JF? NO!!

To anyone that says Raphael's JF's are mashable, this applies to the Prep K:K and BBB:B series(33KB is also easy), THIS IS RAPHAEL'S HARDEST JF, AND BY FAR THE MOST USEFUL OUTSIDE OF COMBO'S) Mashing this needs a turbo controller.....

sigh.....

::goes back to training room::

Ruiner
 
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