Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Learning a flawed (design wise) character isn't a new song and dance for Sieg players.

People will keep playing this character due to the style, design, and whatever non-tier reason they like.

I still played Sieg in SC3 despite the glitches, Sisters, X, and whatever bull the game offered but I didn't care.
This is the character I like, period.
 
Just saw Pantocrator fight on the Kayane stream, the damage seems a little lower but he kicked Maxi's ass and I found out either iagA or agA has Clean Hit. :D
EDIT: Damage seem quite a bit lower, toned down to SCIV damage almost.
 
Double post, but I have to ask... All these people are saying that he is so terrible (the same people who were claiming he was so great in demo builds), but I have yet to see reasons as to why this is the case.

Can someone come in here and elaborate a bit?

- I.C.E.
 
IceColdEdge said:
Double post, but I have to ask... All these people are saying that he is so terrible (the same people who were claiming he was so great in demo builds), but I have yet to see reasons as to why this is the case.

Can someone come in here and elaborate a bit?

- I.C.E.
Click to expand...
I haven't played SCV but I've followed all the builds of SCV and in the final build Sieg's damage seems to be toned down. That is all I've noticed.
 
Solo said:
EDIT: Damage seem quite a bit lower, toned down to SCIV damage almost.
Click to expand...

Been watching the stream as well.

The damage was indeed toned down it seems, but nowhere near the level you really think it is, I guess.

CE looks weaker than before, 3B stills hurts a lot, the nerf in damage is noticeable, but NOWHERE near SCIV level, seriously. But oh, well, there are probably some way less noticeable changes (than damage, that is) a viewer couldn't spot right on that people might tell us about.
 
Solo said:
his stance roulette seems insane compared to previous games.
Click to expand...
In my experience (Played at NEC and SCR) it's basically the same as 4. He also lost some moves (most or all of the A+B moves i think), but they improved the otherwise useless SRSH A. Stance transitions are the same or slower, although the SCH transition may have some decent sidestepping properties to it... Also, as we all know at this point, SCH B is pain.

As long as he can control space well with his improved range, and if 3B has similar properties as the demos he'll have a chance. I've always felt like he was overrated in demo builds (lost +frames on SCH K and 22_88 ka2A worry me a bit), but damage + space control can be an equalizer. Plus I like 22B series, 22A, 66k BE and (seemingly) improved tracking on 4A. I anticipate that just like he was overrated before, that he is being underrated now.

- I.C.E.

P.S. Similar impressions (positive or negative) such as above on the current version of the character would be appreciated.
 
The info about him being weak comes directly from the official SCV guide makers, who have been playing the game for months. Here's their tier list:

SS: Devil Jin
S: Natsu
A: Alpha Patroklos, Pyrrha Omega, Pyrrha, Algol, Cervantes
B: Patroklos, Xiba, Maxi, Ivy, Leixia, Voldo, Tira, Yoshimitsu
C: Mitsurugi, Nightmare, Hilde, Raphael, Ezio, Astaroth
D: Aeon, Dampierre, Z.W.E.I., Viola
E: Siegfried

He must be really bad then, I don't believe that minor damage nerf would put a character on the very bottom. Maybe he was already bad in the older builds but now people were able to reveal his true weaknesses...
 
Yeah I saw that tier list in the aPat thread... I'm still hearing no specifics though, even from people who have had the game for a while now...

It's plausible that he had/has some holes that no one has really seen yet... But still feels like an over reaction...

Considering how active some of these other soul arenas are with specific info on all these other characters, it seems to me that at least one person would come in here with at least a few specific reasons to make such a bold statement that Sieg is far and away the worst in the game. If not, then perhaps they just haven't put that much time into him or there weren't many experienced Sieg players that wrote the guide. (Which is also plausible)

Without specifics, I'm just going to have to trust my own judgement... And right now I say people are overreacting now just like they were in the beta.

- I.C.E.
 
Pantocrator works on the guide and he was doing Sieg, but I'm guessing he can't give any details until the guide is released.
 
@ICE

I will agree with you on the overrated part. Some impressions on current version Sieg:

Spacing

Stronger movement benefits Sieg a lot, perhaps moreso than other characters, because backstep helps keep his distance. This is especially important because he's never had good ranged moves with pushback on block and the loss of old 22B hurt a lot in this regard.

Punishment

You can clearly see the nerfs from previous versions of the game here. His whiffpunishing once again depends on being relatively close to the opponent. While we have the new 22BB, it seems only marginally better than old 22B damage-wise and has much more damaging follow-ups from its optional stance transition, which - again - require Sieg to be fairly close to connect.
On the flipside his punishing game overall still seems way better than in at least SC3 and 4 - as long as you have a little meter. 3(B)~SCH K BE~jagA and 22BB2~SCH K BE~jagA both do very solid damage for a mere 50% gauge and if you got meter to spare you can go over 50% health from 22BB2. SC3 and SC4 Sieg would have wet dreams over that kind of damage.
On top of that we get 66K BE as a closerange punisher, which has impressive damage potential itself for a move of its speed, even moreso if youre willing and able to spend additional meter.

Mix-ups

The damage nerf to his throws was both unnecessary and painful, as his large throwrange remains largely intact and therefore makes them an integral part to his mix-up game.
The SRSH 50/50 is (thankfully) mostly unchanged, with SRSH K doing a bit less and SRSH B doing a bit more damage - plus you have the option of going for the CE instead of a regular follow-up, tho that generally does not seem worth the meter.
Additionally we get 2 new stance 50/50ies from SSH and SBH that are (unsurprisingly) in no way inferior to the SRSH staple when it comes to unsafety. Still, the options are there and make his (at least visibly) faster roulette more compelling to use.
His reverse mix-ups took a huge hit compared to previous versions, tho. The SBH auto-GI is no longer effective in beating fast horizontals from certain unsafe stance transitions. 2_8B+K is also (perhaps rightfully so) still weaker than regular step and will see limited application, tho it offers Siegs best meterless whiffpunishing damage. With both the old 22_88B series and SSH A+B gone, his auto-evade game as a whole is quit a bit weaker than before. And 4B+K and 2A+B, while intact, are VERY situational.

Anti-step

Again, nerfs from previous versions make me sad. What has been changed here has not been clearly seen on stream, tho, so I won't go into specifics so as to not get my source in trouble.
Overall Sieg's in a decent spot, tho. JagA is still great for anti-step and in 22A we actually got a SAFE! TC! MID! horizontal for step killing now. How crazy is that, poofy? What hurts is that the rest of his moveset is so linear. No more step or even 8WR-tracking verticals for us, guys, sorry.

Safety

Lol, this is Siegfried. Get outta here!


Conclusion: We can definitely say that the current Sieg is still way better than his incarnations from the 2 previous games. Take that for what it's worth.
From what I know and have seen, tho, he remains one of the weakest characters in SCV. His unsafety still hurts him a lot (especially so with 4!!! FUCKING! S&S USERS in this game) and he depends on uncomfortably close distance and meter to get comparable damage in. Even so many characters get the same or more reward from easier and safer starters, have an easier time forcing opponents to play their game and getting out of pressure. The rest of the roster is so strong that even the new and improved Sieg gets outshined in pretty much every area. Still, it seems enough to be viable (as SC4 Sieg was viable). But I personally am hoping for some (reasonable) buffs in the first balance patch.
 
Ring said:
Pantocrator works on the guide and he was doing Sieg, but I'm guessing he can't give any details until the guide is released.
Click to expand...
He worked on the guide, ranked him E tier, and still used him in that french launch event tourney... Interesting... I'll be interested to see his input once the game is officially out.


Also, good question about 3B.

Sach... Thanks for the post! Sieg is better than he was in SC4 and is still the worst in the game? Also interesting... That makes me a) wonder how good the rest of these characters are in SC5 and b) question how good (or bad) you guys thought he was in sc4!... lol

Thanks for all the input guys... I appreciate it... Hopefully I can return the favor w/ some good Sieg tech once I get my hands on the game.

- I.C.E.
 
Panto is a Sieg player by heart. He also had a distinct knowledge and experience advantage over most of his opponent due to his working on the guide. And if you watch the recording from yesterday's stream again you can make out where he exploited that.

As for me personally... with what I have seen and know, I rank Sieg AMONG THE WEAKEST but not AS THE WORST character. Viola, Liz and Night all have the "potential" to be worse. Even so I - just like Panto - am rather unhappy and disappointed with Sieg's current state after his promising beginnings from earlier versions of the game. The nerfs (apart from 3B, if it was indeed nerfed) cannot be justified.
 
I may be about to utter blasphemies here, but isn't there a point where all this list-making becomes irrelevant? I mean, if you're proficient with a character you'll do things that can't be put on a list. Does that make any sense?

Sieg is more or less the only character I used in SCIV, and the only serious challenges I remember having were against better players. Not necessarily better characters.

Just to add the two cents of a non-competitive player.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back