Wow Slayer I don't think you understood me. I'm actually mad I have to spend the time to respond to this.
If by "space" you mean push back or create distance, yeah, there are better ways to just do that. 3B does that ok and it does other things. But I wasn't even talking it about using it as a "spacing" tool, when I say "spaced 3B" I mean a 3B that's used at an effective distance (aka spacing). In this case it would be a 3B where fast As, 2As, or even Bs might whiff or evadable with 4B+K. This is where SCH A wouldn't be interruptable.
4B+K would only work at tip range. thats not the range where you would wanna use 3B at anyways, it isnt optimal outside punishment. too risky, as its linear. regardless, any closer than that, you could still TC SCH A with a launcher, most standard launchers have both TC and enough range to cover the distance i believe. and at very very tip range, if you block it, neither of us have any options, because sieg would be too succeptable to step at that range, and you would be out of range for all of your reverse mixup options unless you have a character with very good range.
I don't mean he has a SINGLE answer from his reverse mixup to everything, he now has a bunch of tools that collectively answer everything, while the individual tools cover a lot of options which require the opponent to specifically counter. It's much stronger than say Yun's CR mixups on hit or Taki PO mixups where they have specifically counter them.
true, but it simply means that the opponent has to put alot of though and effort into learning the matchup so that they are prepared to react and deal with this situation accordingly.
Yeah, if you predict a 3B(G) you can punish no matter the spacing. But not on reaction if he's SPACED his 3B, since you'll be so far away and the G cancel is fast enough to block in time for anything that has the range to reach him. Even if you do predict a 3B(G)... have you seen the distance they're at after a blocked 3B that's spaced just behind tip range? Some characters can't do anything about that, and those who can risk getting hit by SCH A which will interrupt everything and SCH B too which is like 50 damage on CH into oki! So 3B(G) is practically safe, SCH A covering everything but duck/TC, and SCH B discouraging the counter to SCH A, while still interrupting a ton of stuff -- remember, they still have to be to reach, and SCH B does not stick out a hurtbox, so they generally need a mid-long range move, which is slow enough to be interrupted. Does everyone follow? Are we not watching the same videos?
saying that 3B[G] is practically safe merely do to this instance is kinda ridiculous. again at the range it would take to do this, 3B could just as easily be stepped anyways. in top of that, as i said before, unless one of us acts at this range, neither of us would have any options. again assuming the character has the range, most standard launchers wouldnt have a problem TCing SCH A anyways. as for SCH B its also extremely linear, and if you find yourself eating it at tip range, i'd say you should re-assess the situation, as well as your current character's limits of dealing with the situation.
With it's TC, range, the damage it does on NH across that range, and it's strength on oki, it totally deserves to be unsafe, at LEAST when blocked up close. He can have high damage or reverse mixup on block, not both in the same move. As for Siegfried relying on 3B to be a good character, that is completely not true. The strength of any one move of any character affects how good the character is. Even after watching Pantocrator's video, I don't understand Siegfried players' fixation on 3B. It's a tech crouching launcher, that's it. In SCIV it seems especially bad, no matter what character I'm playing.
like i said before, its NH damage is practically equivalent to SCIV as far as i can see. 3B has always had dangerous oki, but then again, unless he's magically better at it than he was in SCIV, last i checked, there wasnt ever really a reason to get up against sieg except vs forced blocks. if you stay down, most of the stuff he could hit you with to cause serious damage, will either whiff, or space you out for chip damage save for a handful of moves. its kinda like fighting amy, so long as you dont get up, he cant hurt you that bad. FYI 3B had good enough oki to give some stance mixups on NH, as well as siegfried was in a position to catch rolling, defend against instant stand, and create forced blocks for SG pressure in SCIV in rock paper scissors style mixup, ASSUMING the opponent was silly enough to get up after getting knocked down. and the oki off his 3A was even more dangerous.
I asked about his weaknesses that justify this strength, I don't see it right now. His 6A, with that pushback, seems even better than a standard AA. Is just the lack of 2A?
6A is punishable, and even with the pushback, i can still see people at least getting a simpe dash in 50/50 between grab/mid or whatever. hes also still extremely punishable everywhere else, and as far as i can tell, he still doesnt have any magical fast interrupts outside of what he had in SCIV, which were reliably K, 1K, 6A, 3K, 6K, 66K, and maybe b6. keep in mind K was a linear high, 6K was unsafe and linear and - on hit, 66K was punishable, linear and had terrible range, and 3K was linear with fear advantage.
again sieg also cant really hurt you if you dont get up. his entire game plan either focuses on putting u in mixup, hitting you with his powerful mids (CH fishing or not) taking risks for rewards(which in SCV are finally justified for the amount of risk it seems) or he's trying to space you for poking and chip damage. this new 3B really pretty much does the job of his old WR B's.
not to mention the rest of his core flaws, which im sure you already know by now. they're all still there, he IS still siegfried.
I already explained why it is a mixup for guard damage which seems like a huge deal in this game. SCH B is pretty fast for its range and will beat lots of moves if 3B was spaced. SCH A is there to beat the fast attacks and step... see why this is a mixup?? SCH B does big guard damage. Block correctly? Doesn't matter, you're at a range your +frames don't matter as much.
the only way this could EVER work is if SCH B was somehow faster than a launcher, which it never has been before. since we're assuming SCH A is still the same speed, i'll assume SCH B is still i18. that means even if 3B was 0 on block, you could still beat out SCH B with launchers while TCing SCH A, and all for counter hit mind you. also mind you if its at extreme tip range where launchers wont reach, the only way sieg can even hit you is if you do something. if he acts and you do nothing except maybe step a little, he'll whiff and you'll get a free punish.
as for the guard damage, this is also pretty much no different from SCIV, he did insane SG damage there too. if i were you, i'd be happy that CF's no longer exist. if they did, then i might actually agree with you that 3B needs a nerf. but they dont, so i wont.
and he should be at least AS unsafe as the average character.
i'm sorry, i really gotta call you out here. if you know anything about sieg, its probably obvious by now that he's anything but safe. the only ways he can really avoid punish are through pressure, mixup and gimmick. he's one of the most unsafe characters in the game, and one of the riskiest to play. really even if you're not getting free damage, this is still a guessing game, and whoever guesses right gets good damage, you know, risk/reward.
He's not necessarily a mixup character. With his crazy guard crushing potential and his long range pokes and pushback, he looks to be an excellent zoning/keepaway character. You couldn't turtle him even if he couldn't mixup, so that point is moot. He does not have to CH fish in SCV.
except most of his stuff that gives good guard crush are linear, and most of his good long range pokes are either - on hit, slow, linear or all of the above, and to top that most of them are also punishable. he has a decent poking game, but he's not going to out do characters that are designed to play that way, and who also have a good speed advantage over him. and if anything else, i wouldnt be suprised if his spacing game was a little weaker due to the lack of 22{B} SSH. if anything, these small pushback buffs are to make up for the lack of that move's presence. without mixup, sieg cant hit you with stuff like 3B, which makes the point of mixup moot. and before you say he has iagA to kill step, i'll also point out that iagA/mid is a mixup that is designed to make you duck from fear of iagA so that we can get you to eat his mids, same policy as nightmare. so really with out mixup, sieg wouldnt have iagA either, which would make him even more linear.
:O .... you know what other differences there are?? Range, NH damage, TC, pushback, guard damage. Thanks for reminding me that SCV 3B actually puts on more pressure than SCIV WR B.
again yea, the range is buffed, but outside of punishment you're hardly ever going to see 3B that far out. NH damage is still pretty equal to SCIV 3B, the TC looks to be about the same, the pushback boost is irrelevant IMO, and the move has always done good guard damage. thanks for reminding me.
This is true, eating SCH A isn't the end of the world, but it's a whole worse than the punish I should be getting for blocking a damaging, TC launcher. Say I bait out a TC or guess right in a mixup. Should I be subject to more pressure? I think not, unless everyone else has stuff like that. That'd be pretty awesome, actually.
so basically ur angry because 3B isnt free on block anymore correct? well if you guess right in reverse mixup, using SC4 damage scaling you'd be getting about 65 damage for guessing right(in general for most of the cast - some characters can get pleny more, while some get less.) so you dont need free damage to shut this move down. on top of that, theres alot more dangerous TC's in the game that provide alot more dangerous situations, as we've seen before. playing sophitia, you should know of TAS B's properties, and as well, we can include pretty much anything else in SCIV and SCV that we know of that both TC's and pressures the opponent. remember bullrush?
You know what I did notice he no longer gets a free SCH B or SCH K$ on NH 3B, this is a satisfying nerf. He still gets a force block SCH B. With the guard damage that could turn out to be a big deal.
honestly i'd far prefer the damage over the guard damage mainly for punishment and whiff punishment purposes, especially seeing as this is his main tool for both.
The only thing he really doesn't have is a 2A. 6A looks safe as fuck in SCV and B6 or his new hilt-mid is his BB.
sieg is really, really missing far more than that. and regardless thats not what im asking for, im just asking you to recognize the characters inherent flaws, rather than distorting him as broken because you dont like 3B.
again, it's just a TC launcher
it's sooo much more than that. not to try to force anything on you, but dont u think thats a rather closed minded way of looking at it? probably the most important tool in his move list. again i'll reference panto's vid for a 2nd time, please watch it in detail, and perhaps find or even think of all the ways you can use 3B effectively in a match. using it frequently and properly is SOOO important, i'd even say its vital to siegfried's success as a chharacter. eliminate this launcher from siegs move list, and for all intents in purposes you're practically crippling the character. we'd might as well play a slower version of raphael then.
I think a further nerf to his guard damage would be warranted. Players are getting guard crushed every other round by him, and Sieg gets big damage from them. His pushback with 3B wouldn't be a big deal without the free guard damage. Still, it seems so risk free when spaced on block. I think the pushback could be nerfed too. He now has the tools beat up-close stuff.
again sieg's always been a heavy hitting block pressure character even in SCIV. its one of the other things that allows him to force action. as for his tools for up close, nothing he has will ever beat out the effectiveness of a goot AA, BB, or 2A.
Again, I don't think Siegfried is broken in the latest demo, just bit overpowered. However, if every other character is this strong obviously no more nerfs are needed[/quote]
honestly i think sieg is a model of what the rest of the characters in the game should look like. offensively strong in their own way, with tools designed around their strengths, yet still retaining their inherent character flaws that allow the opponent to turn the tables on them and gain the upper hand. sieg finally has a reasonable risk/reward damage ratio, and i feel like he's fine just the way he is.
IMO how about instead of making judgements on the game, we wait until we get our hands on it on release day, we learn about the characters, and we play a few tournaments for a few months or so before we speculate on what needs to be nerfed and what doesnt? because now all we can do is throw numbers back and forth, we have no real experience to support our theory. we can play theory fighter all day. but you can't build a game on raw numbers, because, for one it doesnt account for human error.
again, dont take this personally, thats not my intention. my only intention is to nullify the flames of what looks to be a nerf happy escapade before the game has even been released and before we even know anything about the game.
If you still want to continue this debate however, it might be better if we take it to PM's. seems like there's starting to be a little bit of friction here. the last thing i want to do is to start a flame war between us.