Tier Discussion

[KingAce]

What the... I'd be very interested in how you arrived at that conclusion. Leixia has an appalingly bad mix-up game. She literally has only 2 fast lows and not a single one of them combos. She's also extremely linear, with most of her launchers and combo-starters being either high or highly steppable and her damage isn't really top notch either, with or without meter, unless she manages to get very situational combos off of CH.

And she's slower than her mother. At least X often had the speed advantage when it came to out-poking her opponent. Leixia lacks low grabs, which limits her mix-up abilities even more. The problem with Leixia is and will always remain, barring re-design, a lack of mix-up options.

Sure.

 

[MystSilver]

Wait Leixia has a lack of mixup options?

Oh man, I'd better tell everyone I play with they can just start swinging when I'm in FC and can stop taking repeated KNDs from 22_88K and 22_88kA.

They'll be happy to hear it.

 

[FallenAngelII]

Wait Leixia has a lack of mixup options?

Oh man, I'd better tell everyone I play with they can just start swinging when I'm in FC and can stop taking repeated KNDs from 22_88K and 22_88kA.

They'll be happy to hear it.

Oh yeah, great mix-up. 22_88K does very little damage and doesn't lead into a combo. Let me amend myself them: Her mix-ups generally has her choose between a mid that combos and a low that doesn't. And the lows never inflict a great deal of damage.

 

[MystSilver]

But it does KND, setting you up for another mixup.

And the mid also KNDs. Both enders do. Which is a mixup.

From FC out of say, 6KK, she has A+B or WR B BE and more. She also has the aB feints.

Also, do -any- lows in this game inflict a great deal of damage? Any that can be used as a mixup anyways?

 

[windirein]

^ I feel like all a low needs is the speed to be hardly seeable and the stats to open up the opponent. Damage and comboes isnt that important, but what is are the frames on hit and/or knd. In which case I think lexia does well enough.

When playing a bit more of Aeon last night I think I realized the overall problems with him.
First of all, in the aeon section everyone was like "he has to get in but cant". Thats not the problem tbh. He doesnt have to get in, or more like: he shouldnt. At close range his frame data means that pretty much everyone can roll him up for free.
He has some good ranged tools that excel at spacing, evading and guard crushing. What you wanna do is whiff-punish as much as possible with 66B, 66A, 22AB, 3B. If someone gets to close to you 66K usually does the job and 11K isnt half bad either. At least I think most players cant see it and it has TC+KND and Aeons oki is decent.

Well at least thats my take on what Aeon is supposed to be. Now if thats the case, he still clearly lacks that "something".
And then I realized people I play against throw out BEs left and right in that mid-range where im trying to keep em. That often opens me up or straight away outdamages all options I got. Aeon got horrible BEs basically. His 6B BE is fine as punisher, but due to its range useless in every other situations and gets you launched if blocked. His 1B BE is made absolete by the above because it has the same range, but is slightly slower...and his FLY BE is completly useless aswell because like everything from FLY it gets beaten by sidestepping. It is literally impossible to ever hit with it (or with FLY K for that matter) against a player who knows what he does.
So imho, he really needs a BE out of one of his good core moves, one with medium range for pressure. Being a fighter thats supposed to be at medium range for whiff-punishing but then not having a single BE in that situation hinders him against many opponents. And yeah, fix his FLY plz. Only 2 options out of it and both are beaten by a sidestep? Whats the point? Why is there no obvious A option that tracks, something that everyone else has?

 

[FallenAngelII]

But it does KND, setting you up for another mixup.

I never said she has no mix-ups. I said that she had bad mix-ups. Because her mix-ups are 99% "Mid that launches and/or combos vs. Low for low damage". They exist. But they aren't exactly great. Also, I used that argument to counter the "Leixia is Top Tier" assessment of her because I can't see Leixia being Top Tier in this game in a million years.

And the mid also KNDs. Both enders do. Which is a mixup.

Which still only puts Leixia into a situation where she can do a mix-up for a mid for combo/launcher or a low that does little damage.

From FC out of say, 6KK, she has A+B or WR B BE and more.

But 6KK is unsafe on block and it doesn't combo on hit into anything if they shake (I think) out of it.

She also has the aB feints.

What, you mean ->BaB? What a great mix-up! High-High or High-pause-Mid! For relatively little damage!

Also, do -any- lows in this game inflict a great deal of damage? Any that can be used as a mixup anyways?

Not great, but much greater than Leixia's lows. Also, many of them combo.

She has mix-ups. They just aren't great... at all. She doesn't even have many good horizontals that aren't high.

 

[MystSilver]

There are mixups in this game that aren't just low/mid/high. The aB feints are + on block and allow you to keep pressing an advantage and wailing on their guard (something else she's good at). She also has stuff like 4B B_bK. There's no option that beats both, and it does heavy guard damage.

I've won rounds with the 88_22 K_kA mixup alone; remember after each successful guess, you get another mixup. Keep reading them and the damage piles up. And again, if you choose kA, you get ANOTHER mixup at the end.

6KK doesn't need to combo into anything, it puts you in FC with a 10 frame advantage. From which you can mixup. Two options from FC lead to combos. Four if we're going to count 4K and FC 3bB.

I'm not making any judgement of her tier position, I feel it's too early and I don't know the whole cast that well. But she sure as hell has mixups.

 

[ChaosK]

Lol a Leixia player complaining about mixups. People are spoiled these days.
Next time, Natsu players will come and complain about damage or Alpha players about frames. Good times.

 

[FallenAngelII]

There are mixups in this game that aren't just low/mid/high. The aB feints are + on block and allow you to keep pressing an advantage and wailing on their guard (something else she's good at).

The 1st hit is still high, the 2nd hit is still highly delayed and so what if it is + on block? She can't even get a tick throw in. She's taking a huge risk in the hopes that the opponent will be dumb enough to try to pull off a move afterwards and eat an AA, 3B or some other fast move. It'll work maybe twice, but then the opponent's gonna wise up and wham, mix-up useless.

She also has stuff like 4B B_bK. There's no option that beats both, and it does heavy guard damage.

B_bK has a delay. It's not about whether or not people can simply hit you out of the mix-ups, it's about how difficult they are to guess and/or block on reaction. Block standing twice, if she's still moving after some frames on the 2nd hit, jump (or block low) and Leixia will be a sitting duck.

I'm not sure what the window of opportunity is to react to B_bK, but there's a reason why high level players don't use it much.

I've won rounds with the 88_22 K_kA mixup alone; remember after each successful guess, you get another mixup. Keep reading them and the damage piles up. And again, if you choose kA, you get ANOTHER mixup at the end.

Are you opponents in a coma? How can they consistently lose the 22_88 K/kA mix-up? They can just slide-block from low to standing if they suck at guessing in order to at least minimize the amount of times they lose to it.

That said, I don't think you're understanding exactly what I meant by "mix-up". You almost never have to block Leixia's lows. If they 22_88 K you, wow, you just ate 25 of damage! Just block standing because if she does a 22_88 kAAB/K, the mix-up at the end only does nominal damage.

Also, the kA mix-up is alsodelayed. The K comes out fast while the B only comes out after a split. How can they possibly lose that mix-up consistently? Just block standing and if you notice that Leixia is still moving, block low.

6KK doesn't need to combo into anything, it puts you in FC with a 10 frame advantage. From which you can mixup.

Yes, and? Her mix-ups are still bad from there. So 6KK (on hit) allows her to mix-up. And? How does this mean that she has a good mix-up game?!

Two options from FC lead to combos. Four if we're going to count 4K and FC 3bB.

Or they could just do a standing block from crouch. They aren't forced to remain in FC.

But she sure as hell has mixups.

Mediocre ones. She has zero true 50/50s that both lead to either heavy damage and/or combos. Almost every single one of her mix-ups is between a mid that will combo/do heavy damage or a low that will just do nominal damage (and throws). Do they exist? Yes. Are they great? No.

I don't know who you're playing or what their level are. But take a look at any good Leixia's (or Xianghua's). The mix-ups you're lauding are seldom used for the very reasons I've chronicled above.

 

[Goofy]

Here's my two cents:

Top Tier: Alpha Patroklos, Natsu
High Tier: Cervantes, Ivy*, Mitsurugi, Omega, Pyrrha
Upper-Mid Tier: Algol*, Astaroth, Lexia, Maxi*, Nightmare, Voldo*, Yoshimitsu*
Mid Tier: Hilde*, Patroklos, Siegfried, Tira, Xiba
Lower-Mid Tier: Aeon, Raphael, Viola
Low Tier: Dampierre, Zwei

* = Not sure

Edit: Gave it some more thought...
Edit 2: More thought after playing PyroZamfir's Siegfried...

 

[MystSilver]

You're disregarding the guard damage, which I think is foolish.

Not sure about the delay on the 88 K but I haven't had it reliably blocked before, I don't think sliding works...

Also, again, you're disregarding the KND.

No, -they- aren't forced into FC, WE are force into FC, and we like that.

Whatever man. You want to think Leixia doesn't have mixups? That's fine by me, spamming 88K while you try to block the one that "does damage" every time will be an easy win for me.

 

[FallenAngelII]

You're disregarding the guard damage, which I think is foolish.

I'm not, but she's wide open during some of these strings. So it's a high risk with relatively little reward.

Not sure about the delay on the 88 K but I haven't had it reliably blocked before, I don't think sliding works...

You can hit her in-between the final hits of 22_88 kA. The initial mix-up has a slight delay on kA, so sliding from low to standing block will take care of it. You can't do it every single time, but good players will be able to consistently block or guess it.

Also, again, you're disregarding the KND.

And again I say: So what? Leixia's mix-ups on knockdown are the same as when she's standing (no, scratch that, they're fewer). So what if she gets a knockdown? Her mix-ups are still limited. You're acting as if a knockdown guarantees anything. Leixia only gets guaranteed stuff after knockdown on a limited set of moves after counterhit.

No, -they- aren't forced into FC, WE are force into FC, and we like that.

How does 4K force anyone into FC? And she has, like, a single move that combos from FC that isn't mid. Again, the problem with Leixia's mix-ups is that whenever she has one, the better option is almost always a mid. So you have very little reason to block low against her.

Whatever man. You want to think Leixia doesn't have mixups?

What part of "Of course they exist, they just aren't very good" was too Canadian French pour vous the first 12 times I said it?

That's fine by me, spamming 88K while you try to block the one that "does damage" every time will be an easy win for me.

Watch me block it eventually and combo you off it. 22_88K needs to hit 9 times to deplete a full lifebar. That's how relatively weak it is. Congratulatiosn on having a relatively fast almost 50/50 mix-up whose low does 25 damage!

 

[mkl]

22_88K isn't too scary really. You can block both K and kA if you just know what to look for in her left leg. She does like 6 frames of a donkey kick for K and doesn't do it for kA. Online? Probably not. But offline you can accurately block it with decent consistency. LX isn't a super mixup heavy character so much as an all out safe aggro character. She'll crush guard, destroy side rollers, and continue to apply safe pressure if you know how to use her.

Anyway, this doesn't sound like tier discussion. Nerf everyone but Yoshi.

 

[Windstar]

22_88K isn't too scary really. You can block both K and kA if you just know what to look for in her left leg. She does like 6 frames of a donkey kick for K and doesn't do it for kA. Online? Probably not. But offline you can accurately block it with decent consistency. LX isn't a super mixup heavy character so much as an all out safe aggro character. She'll crush guard, destroy side rollers, and continue to apply safe pressure if you know how to use her.

Anyway, this doesn't sound like tier discussion. Nerf everyone but Yoshi.

Ehh, pretty close. Leixia's problems isn't her mix-ups - which are actually pretty decent but not "OMG - Wow!" - the problem isn't her safety, either. The main problem with Leixia is that she's pretty interruptible on a number of her strings and that a lot of her stuff is really hard to connect and follow up with. Chiefly, her feints and guard breaks can all be stepped and they're the only options she has that reward a positive on block. Leading to that yummy use of WR B BE. Pretty much any other move used on block as a lead-in to WR B BE, won't work on good opponents. Then of course there's the problem that when a player sees a Leixia player prepping a GB or an aB feint and they block it, there's not much chance that WR B BE will catch the player off guard. Which basically leads to Leixia sitting on either throwing, or trying another option - most of which will be blocked, or stepped.

Thus, the issue with Leixia isn't mix-ups, its that she's a bit too predictable and telegraphs a ton. Issues with getting combos started (only two non-gimmicky combo starters, both anti-step and both have semi-long start-up), is another problem. She doesn't really have a clincher move like Natsu's 4B, WS K, or Pyrrha's 44A, 4B, 6K, or Pat's 66B, or anyone within the short-range category. She's easy to interrupt - 44A_[A]_B, WS B, WS B BE, 4BB, 4BbB, 6BbA, 22kAAB_K, WS A+BbB, 4A+BB, and 66BbB can all be interrupted on the last hit, or thrown out of. Yes, even her natural combo of 22kAAB_K is interruptible, on the last hit with a simple 2A/1K. Don't even need to prep a JG for any of these. Not to mention many of them can be stepped.

That said, as you can see, she has a huge list of moves to her name. A lot of characters don't have this kind of variety, and most are stuck to using a handful of moves. Although personally, I think a lot of players are vastly underestimating some characters moves (Pyrrha's 6BK and AK are two such moves rarely seen). So it's natural for Leixia to have some deficiencies with her moves compared to other characters who use a smaller list. Besides that, its barely been more than a month since SC5 came out, and there's still plenty more to discover. Right now I'm experimenting with trying to use 1A as an attempt to break retaliation attempts instead of 44B. In other words, replacing options where 44B would be useful with 1A. I'll see how well this works out soon.

 

[Omega]

So much knowledge, can i be part of the group?

 

[RhinoOne]

As a Leixia player myself I have to agree with Windstar. Her Mixups are mostly bad or do to little damage over all (I agree on this point with FallenAngelll) but this isn't her problem. Leixia as a whole is to predictable and to interruptible. She has problems that her mother never had. Xianghua always had a great mixup game with fast lows and good overall speed, Leixia in comparison to that is kinda sluggish. Her combo starters are easily foreseeable and her mixups are to unsafe/interruptible to really pressure the opponent.


I almost dropped Leixia since she just did not really what I was trying to do with her (playing a fast paced pressure game).
But I adjusted to her and now I am playing her in a whole other way. I don't try to force mixups or combo starters on the opponent, instead I try to get as many relatively safe hits in as possible and try to whiff punish a lot. If played carefully Leixia breaks the guard gauge very fast and you get to combo all you want against an opponent with like - over9000 frames.


Would I say that Leixia has bad mixups?
Yes I would.


Seriously everyone has to look at her lows, as they speak for themselves. Mixups and pressuring just aren’t the way I see Leixia getting much success in the long run. Opponents adapt to her relatively quick and if you try to keep up your pressure game under this circumstances you will just get interrupted and punished all the time.

 

[MntT77]

See, when I play this game, I can't help but feel that O.Pyrrha will probably end up being upper-mid tier, rather than top. She's got good damage output, sure, but her low game leaves a lot to be desired - there really isn't a lot of incentive to crouch against her...

 

[windirein]

^That 1K mounts up to enough damage over the course of a full match. Unseeable and quick, forces many "situations".

 

[damn-I-Suck]

^That 1K mounts up to enough damage over the course of a full match. Unseeable and quick, forces many "situations".

Not only is that move annoying, the animation for it looks stupid as hell.

Her 236B JF stab alone makes up for any and all weaknesses she has. One CH stab JF and a third of your life is gone, sometimes more.

Seriously, I wanna "stab" the guys at PS in the same manner as Omega and say "How do you like it BITCH!".

I really hate characters that only need 8-10 moves to be effective.

You know, fuck it. I know I'm gonna get flamed for this:

She's OP and Brainless. I guess the apple didn't fall far from the tree (Sophitia). Please namco, nerf the FUCK out of NS B, make it -19 so I can 3B it with Sieg :)

 

[Paranormal_Oreo]

Top: Devil Jin, Natsu, a Patroklos, Cervantes.
Upper mid:Algol, Pyrrha, Pyrrha O, Maxi, Elysium(Yes I count her. AMAZING CE, better range than all but 2 female characters, and in general, there are less bad females than there are bad males.)
Mid: Xiba, Patroklos, Ivy, Nightmare, Astaroth, Ezio, Yoshimitsu, Hilde, Leixia, Voldo.
Lower mid: Raphael, Siegfried, Viola, ZWEI.
Bottom: Aeon, Dampierre.