Raphael Tournament Discussion

[KowtowRobinson]

I don't use 22K as much as I could, considering you're not ALWAYS going to be at Raph's optimal range. That being said, 22K does not operate in Raph's optimal range. Good to remember it's there, but you shouldn't be using it as a main tool. It IS pretty slow for it's range.

 

[Hudathan]

I have been told to use more 22K, but I'm not a huge fan of throwing out random slow highs? What are your thoughts on this?

TL;DR - People caught on to the shenanigans, Xiba is balls, 22B is the shit (set it up)...what are your thoughts on 22K?

Xiba is awesome, I've been playing him since day 1 whenever I'm not working on Raph and he's the complete opposite by design. He's the one who just throws good stuff out there and puts pressure on the opponent to figure it all out, whereas Raph should only hit specific buttons at specific times. As a result I feel like I'm able to think more on Xiba because my options take care of themselves, where with Raph my presence of mind is weaker because I'm concentrating on the moment-to-moment decisions.

 

[JodorowskyVIII]

Akire (Mitsurugi) is the new French champion.

Gohan and his Raphael fought against him in 1/4 finals.

Here is the video :

Let's hear your opinion about this match.

 

[Mandritti]

lolmitsucombovideo

On 22K:
My theory is that there are "noob stuffers". There are moves that are bad _in theory_, but against people whose play is missing some element or has some flaw that you can spot, they help you seal rounds really quickly, so there's less risk to die to gimmicks, your own weaknesses, or just bad luck.
'Correct' is whatever will end the other guy. The tight stuff is capable and resilient, that's why it's the tight stuff, but not adapting is not adapting.

I have been of the belief 22K is a noobstuffer since SC IV, and nothing in V steers that opinion in a positive or negative direction. Sometimes people just "walk" into counterhits. But I've yet to see a reason a player who knows a thing or two will _have_ to step into this. You take some ridic combo damage once and use it to end a round without using an actual technique. One less round of actual data on your playstyle to crunch.

(It's a problem because I love doing the move OoN, but that's for - and I hate misusing this word because disorders are not for jokes, but - OCD reasons.)

 

[Real_Bojack]

Raph's biggest issue in that fight was using slow as shit moves point blank. If you're sitting on Mitu's 'sack 66B is inappropriate.

 

[Skillusionist]

Well I've said it to other people before but I feel Raph is just in a very funky place.

When you look at him on paper, he really is not that good. Just about all of his damage is steppable. And while yes he does have tools to stop step, his poke damage is so laughably low that a lot of the time I don't feel like I'm punishing my opponent for abusing step but rather just making trying to step annoying. Which really isn't that bad of a thing if it wasn't for the other chink in Raph's armor. A majority of his step catchers and keep out pokes are either high or unsafe on block. So all an opponent really has to do is keep stepping until they find an opening to either punish if you decide to be a little risky or hit you with a move that has tech crouch properties once they notice a pattern. This is viable because of Raph's horrible poke damage. I can hit a person 2-4 times effectively keeping them from stepping but soon as they find an opening and catch me with a TC move with most characters that one hit is enough even things up. So they can guess wrong 2-4 times, to my once.

Plain and simple. Raph does NOT have the tools to win.

But that does not mean Raph is not able to compete. What Raph does have is the tools to prevent his opponent from winning. Frames can tell you a lot about a character but Raph has two things that frame data does not prepare an opponent for. Range and spacing. He's fast and has a good reach which means a lot of things that are safe to most of the cast Raph can punish. His pokes do such low damage that people tend to ignore them letting them add up. And that is part of what makes Raph strong...the human element. Those little pokes at the right time are just annoying. Just as soon as they think they have some momentum... poke. Just as soon as they think they are out of range... poke.

To take a quote from Mandritti: "You have an A game; that plan is to maximize your chances at winning exchanges and the round..."

I think with Raph the goal is very much the opposite. Raph's A game is not to maximize his chances but to minimize his opponents chances. Those pokes aren't meant to attack your opponents life bar but their rhythm. Throw off their timing and keep them guessing. I find the more I try to win with Raph the more openings I give my opponent and Raph is not one of those characters you want to be in a fight where you are trading blows.

And this brings me to use of Raph's Meter. Raph's meter options SUCK. His prep b BE might look flashy at the end of a combo but really the only add 10-15 damage if he just did Prep bbb. 1/4 meter for 10-15 damage is pretty bogus. Yet even I can't help but shake the habit most of the time when I land 22b NOT to finish with the BB. Because of Raph's low damage, that extra 15 damage can be the difference between getting the win or your opponent surviving long enough to catch you and steal the round. And a lot of people like to use it to break guard but to an opponent who knows the last hit is steppable you're gonna get punished for it. His other BE's are decent but very situational.

So this got me to thinking. If Raph's strength is interrupting an opponents rhythm. Using his meter to GI rather than BE would be more productive in the long run. So I adopted a bit of a change in play style. I keep 1/4 meter for GI. Once I get half meter I might throw in a Prep K BE or Prep b BE if close to a guard break. Once I hit 1 meter, I either hold out for a 12 frame punish with CE. And once I hit 1 and half meters I throw out 33k BE to finish it with a CE. I pretty much stopped using prep BE as a combo finisher or I am trying to at least. I dunno, given his options and looking at them on paper I just feel GI'ing as much as possible is better for Raph in the long term than any of his other meter options. Well that's my take anyways Raph from a competitive perspective.

 

[DigitalCount]

That Gohan match was not a great showcase of Raphael's ability. Felt like Gohan froze up, didn't step obvious verticals, and didn't use enough 22B. And yes, not enough 2A as well. Gotta love tournament nerves.
-DC

 

[piggy]

The knockdown on the Prep B BE is what I really like about it. The extra damage is good, but I like knocking them down, which gives me some oki options for pressure, as well as the ability to re-space out if that is what is most important - it isn't just about the extra damage.

 

[YounFox]

I dont know how you are playing where you think raph cant compete. his anti step options are solid and if people are tcing you for trying to counter step then they set themselves up for 22b. Raph excels at making reads and knowing MUs, if you got that down then raph is ridiculously solid. I have fought a bunch of peeps who know the MU, they still get mixed up outta prep and throws really do this courage step as well as 22a

 

[optymuss]

Skill I agree with little of what you say.
but Raphael is good.

This game is an offensive game. So in general, or theoretically, you will see more people play Raphael at close range in order to pressure him because Raphael just about has the best mid range/ spacing game. However he has the tools (3A,22_88A,33_99A, 1B and others) to play his spacing game.

He has mixups with A, B, and 6A to keep them pressured at close range.

Saying these mixups are steppable and weak is understandable. However, since he is linear it just makes his horizontals more of a.fear.

Step takes about 20 frames..and if the forward or back dash then raph is at an advantage because they are either wasting frame by closing in or building distance by retreating.

I also noticed that Raphael seems to have very good horizontals for being.linear and they are good when compared to other characters. He has the fastest mid horizontal if I recall and CH 22_88A gives a free 66(B) force block if they lock up..

Also throughout the SC series, the longer range the move typically means the more linearity. Also vertical generally deal more gauge damage than horizontals.

So all in all he has his weaknesses but the opponent.abuses them then you psychologically cripple them. This applies to all characters.

Sorry for the typos

 

[KowtowRobinson]

He has the fastest mid horizontal if I recall and CH 22_88A gives a free 66(B) force block if they lock up..

Fastest mid horizontal? If you're referring to 3A, that doesn't exactly track step as well as something like Cervy 3A. That's the kind of move I think of as a true mid horizontal. But 3A is a good move, and in close Raph should be utilizing it in some capacity. It does have a little tracking to it too, which is a bonus.

 

[WuHT]

if 3A does whiff you're either: 1) out of range or 2) going to have 90% of your other shit stepped anyways. Situationally, its a low-risk crutch up close

 

[Mandritti]

@Skillusionist: I would say that the remark about Raphael playing an anti-game is what I would have said, but, going back over what I wrote... it's not what I said. So fair 'nuff.
Yes, I agree with how you put it, your chances are 'making both guys suck, and Raph suck less' rather than something more affirmative. That's likely his appeal to me, on some unconscious level. Raphael playing this "nyeh nyeh" game. There's always at least bits of proactive game in any character I think we have to look for.


More play-by-play on that Gohan video, as I felt a need to justify the mistakes lie with the player.
What I see:

• First issue was doing 3(B)~SE. With the way that match was going, Sway was not going to get respect. This Mitsu knew what the length of his sword. He was not going to give a shit what Raph was doing until he hit him.
• Hitting (33KB, OTG 66A+B,) 99B later, he backs off. That is not going to win the match. I don't rightly know I could have dealt with Akire after running up there, but I know I would have had to do it, with that kind of startup to a match. You're always looking for what the other guy doesn't know how to do, you don't win if you don't find it.

Of course there were stimulus-response verticals, and really nervous predictable movement that got punished with increasing severity. Waiting, it's not 'freezing up' if you still react to what you see.

A thought process that I think applies here: pare down the tree of stuff you know, when you ar getting steamrolled, to the derivative, brainless shit, and then play just to land that. 2A. BBB. carefully timed backstep or kick. You need that momentum just to stop your opponent's combo video, to get your space back, to get your breath back - it doesn't have to work forever.​

This isn't "get a 2A in there" , it's switching your brain to "2A is the only thing on the command list that matters - now be a genius and land it once, then come talk to me."​

I can' t think of a more effective actually functional solution to this kind of trainwreck scenario from my experience. You focus your head on making something small work, your talent will get you there. (Then after that, don't **** blow it.)​

Some good stuff I saw: 6B2 answered with 3A. I never would have thought of that. look at the reach it had.

Lameness:
That 99B really should have hit R1. Is it because of the 4B? If so, a rule of thumb becomes: 33B is better against Mist. Doesn't make sense, but there it is.
Notes: 1:49 is the coolest clash ever
This vid goes to show that 22B attempts are not free. Mitsu here gets dash up, spot my attack. It is part of a greater, successful Raph game, but it doesn't improve things in isolation magically if the rest isn't running.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

Got 3rd today, vids in the vids thread. Played pretty ugly, haven't played really at all since the last tourney. But 22B is pretty nifty, so it's ok.

 

[Name_v.5.0]

Had a tournament today and did much better than last time, even with the nerf. It was really strange, I expected to get bodied but I didnt. I tied for 3rd. I think nerfs to other characters may have helped. I didnt use 22B very much at all and just applied intense pressure with prep and 2A and 2B. It sort of seems like Raph just needs to rush down like a mad man to win with the group I play with. I did finally get taken out by a Pyrrha player, but even that came down to the very last round in the set.

In summary: Lots of 2A and prep pressure. NO shadow evade, it only got me beat up. I kept it simple and actually excelled.

 

[Name_v.5.0]

Absolutely right. So many people overlook Raph's simple moves. They seem week but if their frames and other properties are effective, they're good. And yes you can win with minimal use of SE to reduce the risk. And Raph does have some strong combos. However, you shouldn't always rush down like a mad man. It depends on who you're facing. You can end up in a lot of trouble. If they are not familiar with Raph or are not very aggressive, then become more aggressive. But if they know how to deal with Raph, focus, defend well, and try to overcome their exploitation of Raph's weaknesses. At least I feel better than my favorite still has a chance :)

Ahh yes, I left that out. I play defense VERY well and that comes from matchup knowledge. Without that I would lose badly. Just wait for your openings people.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Had a tournament today and did much better than last time, even with the nerf. It was really strange, I expected to get bodied but I didnt. I tied for 3rd. I think nerfs to other characters may have helped. I didnt use 22B very much at all and just applied intense pressure with prep and 2A and 2B. It sort of seems like Raph just needs to rush down like a mad man to win with the group I play with. I did finally get taken out by a Pyrrha player, but even that came down to the very last round in the set.

In summary: Lots of 2A and prep pressure. NO shadow evade, it only got me beat up. I kept it simple and actually excelled.

Well good stuff to you. Your from Iowa so I'll be seeing you sooner or later for some Raphael mirrors lol. I'm from Nebraska so that's why I said that.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

Had a tournament today and did much better than last time, even with the nerf. It was really strange, I expected to get bodied but I didnt. I tied for 3rd. I think nerfs to other characters may have helped. I didnt use 22B very much at all and just applied intense pressure with prep and 2A and 2B. It sort of seems like Raph just needs to rush down like a mad man to win with the group I play with. I did finally get taken out by a Pyrrha player, but even that came down to the very last round in the set.

In summary: Lots of 2A and prep pressure. NO shadow evade, it only got me beat up. I kept it simple and actually excelled.

I'm curious as to how you're keeping pressure with Prep though? Was Prep K a factor?

 

[Name_v.5.0]

Well good stuff to you. Your from Iowa so I'll be seeing you sooner or later for some Raphael mirrors lol. I'm from Nebraska so that's why I said that.

That's cool. Looking forward to it. I never play against Raph...ever. So I'll probably get destroyed even though I know him.

I'm curious as to how you're keeping pressure with Prep though? Was Prep K a factor?

On a knock down i like to go into prep using 3B. Then I'll tap them with 4B(B) into 4AB. I keep this going until I feel they are going to try something then I enter SE.

I dont use Prep k all that much. Seems to break momentum. I admit i cant exactly write out how I pressure, it'd be easier to show you. I need to video it one of these days.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

That's cool. Looking forward to it. I never play against Raph...ever. So I'll probably get destroyed even though I know him.



On a knock down i like to go into prep using 3B. Then I'll tap them with 4B(B) into 4AB. I keep this going until I feel they are going to try something then I enter SE.

I dont use Prep k all that much. Seems to break momentum. I admit i cant exactly write out how I pressure, it'd be easier to show you. I need to video it one of these days.

From the way you describe it, your video would show your opponents not even attempting a tech crouching move against prep. As far as 3B on wakeup, I'd rather go with options that can hit grounded and siderollers.