Raphael Tournament Discussion

[piggy]

I just wanted to start a thread where we could discuss how tournaments went, how strategies worked out, or didn't work out and general observations from offline competition. With Winter Brawl this weekend (are any of the rest of you guys coming to this...Kowtow? Hudathan?) and having already had tournaments in other places, I thought having a separate thread for this discussion could be helpful not only for those that go to tournaments regularly, but for anyone who may be planning on going to a tournament in the future.

 

[piggy]

With the thread started - do you guys that have already attended tournaments (Kowtow, Fenro, anyone else may have missed) have any thoughts / advice for anyone heading to a tournament this weekend?

 

[Hudathan]

I'm hosting a local tournament here in Baltimore tomorrow, not sure if I'll be traveling over the weekend. Regardless, my matches here should be streamed and recorded and I'll have something to show. I have some general ideas on how to pace his game in a neutral competitive environment against unfamiliar opposition, we'll see how it goes.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

So far what I've learned is that many experienced players aren't shutting down Prep/SE outright over the course of a best of 3 tournament set. They're attempting to step, but using timing to realign is often sufficient, and can also fluster them with that "I stepped that!" response. Getting hit with SE B even though you stepped is going to stick in the minds of most players in a pressure situation like that.

Put the pressure on your opponent to make plays in order to counter Raph's game. I probably play more aggressive than most Raph players. Instead of hanging back to feel out and observe the opponent, I'll usually attack and force them to show me how they plan on handling the base elements of Raph's game. Raph has the tools to fall back and play more defensively later if he needs to, but it helps to plant some of these problems in your opponent's mind early on. Adjust your offense according to their responses. If a particular element of your game is working, don't be afraid to use it more just because YOU know how to beat it, make them beat it. Don't get complacent and stop watching for their response of course, but don't run mindgames on yourself either.

Mostly, you just can't let the fear of what your opponent MIGHT do dictate how you play. Make them prove themselves.

 

[Hudathan]

Mostly, you just can't let the fear of what your opponent MIGHT do dictate how you play. Make them prove themselves.

Cornerstone of any competitive play. If I worried about every single counter to every single one of my options I wouldn't press a single button in any game regardless of character. The key is to put the opponent and his match-up knowledge on the spot. Chances are, they're not as familiar with your main character as you are and you have to play with that confidence in mind.

 

[darkfender]

So far what I've learned is that many experienced players aren't shutting down Prep/SE outright over the course of a best of 3 tournament set. They're attempting to step, but using timing to realign is often sufficient, and can also fluster them with that "I stepped that!" response. Getting hit with SE B even though you stepped is going to stick in the minds of most players in a pressure situation like that.

don t count on this if you plan to go to cannes.
Some players also can JG 6B,BBE consistently.

I can confirm most players have yet to figure out how raph works...but players who got the game months ago already know how and where to attack.

 

[WuHT]

well if you get a jG on the first hit of the multi-stab portion, you'll get the auto JG for all the hits except for the last 236B lunge (which you could have stepped if you guarded normally) so I don't see the real bonus that you get from jGing all the hits (you could say that JGing only the last hit might net you some more damage).

 

[Hudathan]

From last night's tournament, do less Prep and be more patient. Reliable moves are 22B, 22A, 2A. Need to use more 4K, 44K, 1K. Basically slow the game down, don't give up any life to characters who do more damage off easier stuff, work off simple stuff until they whiff. Moving and catching 22B is crucial, take the guaranteed damage and don't get greedy with too many setups. Spend more time in the lab and don't get hit by random BE's you're not used to stepping/jumping/just-guarding against. (That last one is mostly just me.)

 

[JodorowskyVIII]

When you do 66Bb(BE) from max range, the last hit of the multi-stab portion is often not auto-JG.
Without a full JG they can only step on Raph left. With a full Auto JG, they can step where they want.
When someone JG the last 236B, Raph is at -30, righ in front of the opponent.

 

[piggy]

Spend more time in the lab and don't get hit by random BE's you're not used to stepping/jumping/just-guarding against. (That last one is mostly just me.)

I don't think this is just you, Hudathan, I think defense is critical to Raph's success. Sure, defense is always important, but one of Raph's strengths is the i12 punish. Not a lot of damage, but most people aren't going to fear throwing out moves that are i12 punishable, and his range can catch almost every instance of -12.

When someone JG the last 236B, Raph is at -30, righ in front of the opponent.

Well...that sucks...I guess it's time to test to see how well people have taken to jG ;-)

 

[Guts]

Good showing last night Hud, made me proud to be a Raph player. I'll have to get some more practice against Pyrrha myself after watching the matches (ahhh, she's so safe) since I rarely get an opportunity to play against one; seems like everyone plays nightmare.

Edit: shouldn't the last hit of 6Bb(BE) getting JG'd not be of concern for us (assuming we're hit confirming?) -- this is what we are referring to by the mention of 236B, yes?

 

[piggy]

Yeah, but 6BB(BE) is also good for guard crush, so it can be used outside of combos for damage.

 

[Hudathan]

Don't do anything that's more than -10 against Pyrrha unless you really need a big play. I used a 6K at the end of one of the rounds to push Zor back on block so I can try to make a play, except even with the push-back Pyrrha just 2A'd me for my troubles. Happened again with an A+B A but that was more on me.

 

[JodorowskyVIII]

Pyrrha A is i11, and Natsu A is i10.
That's really irritating, they can punish things which are normaly safe...
With "6BB/prep~BB = +0 on hit", it feel like i am powerless in close range, and can't continue the offensive.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

don t count on this if you plan to go to cannes.
Some players also can JG 6B,BBE consistently.

I can confirm most players have yet to figure out how raph works...but players who got the game months ago already know how and where to attack.

So you do something else then. They can do one move at a time, same as you. If you keep feeding them Prep and expect it to work for free, of course good players will punish you. But the same applies to any character, and I get the sense that you don't really believe that. You seem to feel some top tier characters (admittedly, Raph is not) can just do a particular move/strategy for free. It's not true. Anything that any character does carries some risk. Raph can minimize his risk by operating at a range where many characters can't retaliate.

Stop expecting the move properties to carry the entire burden for you. Raph takes more than just "do move X here" to win. And honestly, I don't see you beating those Cannes players with ANY character. I don't even see you beating someone like Hudathan or myself with any character, top tier or otherwise. This thread is about competitive mindsets, and you have shown us that you lack that.

All you've done is found ways for Raph to lose. We're all trying to find ways for Raph to win. You tell me who's coming out ahead.

I don't think this is just you, Hudathan, I think defense is critical to Raph's success. Sure, defense is always important, but one of Raph's strengths is the i12 punish. Not a lot of damage, but most people aren't going to fear throwing out moves that are i12 punishable, and his range can catch almost every instance of -12.

Worth quoting. There are moves that Raph can punish easily that some top tier characters can't punish at all. Just another unique strength that he has going for him. 6BB isn't bad for an i12 punish damage wise, and it beats the shit out of ZERO damage any day. Not to mention, they have to respect the prep entry, whether you do it or not.

Pyrrha A is i11, and Natsu A is i10.
That's really irritating, they can punish things which are normaly safe...
With "6BB/prep~BB = +0 on hit", it feel like i am powerless in close range, and can't continue the offensive.

Raph isn't at his strongest at close range, Natsu and Pyrrha are. Don't let them take their preferred range for free, and understand that the full spectrum of your offensive options aren't going to work as well if they've achieved this range.

Remember, they can't move sideways AND forward at the same time. Make sure you understand this, then FORCE your opponent to respect this by not surrendering that space freely.

 

[Hudathan]

Remember, they can't move sideways AND forward at the same time. Make sure you understand this, then FORCE your opponent to respect this by not surrendering that space freely.

Nah man, gotta have superior options in every moment of every match or you can't win.

On a serious note, the struggle over positioning is a tactic that many players simply do not recognize as a vital part of every competitive fighting game. Too many players think that just because they're not getting hit that nothing is happening in the match, and that is plain wrong. Too often, inattention during the neutral game will determine the outcome of the clash depending how both players maneuver around one another, especially a character heavily based on space like Raph.

 

[darkfender]

I don't see you beating those Cannes players with ANY character. I don't even see you beating someone like Hudathan or myself with any character, top tier or otherwise. This thread is about competitive mindsets, and you have shown us that you lack that.

All you've done is found ways for Raph to lose. We're all trying to find ways for Raph to win. You tell me who's coming out ahead.

Yeah yeah...
Its really pro to think...i'll base my game on this.....if you say it couldn t work you suck....
Then you find someone who actually can really shut down that strategy and you are just helpless.

Instead a noob like me, could think "hey that actually might not work against everybody" and have a B plan ready.

It sucks to be noob like me.....

I hougt that scIV experience already shown how some character can win big tournaments with the surprise effect, but lose badly if they didn t prepare for the worse....(Zas but also the scary Hilde comes to mind....).

Adding a thing i found effective (maybe for the aforementioned lack of experience in raph matchup) is that often you found yourself fighting short range with an opponent each poking the other to death...
Well in that situation running (i said at very short range) into opponent and 66B will force opponent to block it.....if they try to react they really risk to eat a 66B, and at that distance they won t try to step twice.

My english sucks so i dunno if you can understand what i said, but the point would be that 66B at short range is unreactable and running will delay the attack that few istants to align without being so slow to lose priority (considering opponent won t be able to see what's happening and they fear tracking options at that range) and can also net a CH 66B if they try to gamble a TC.

 

[WuHT]

Yeah yeah...
Its really pro to think...i'll base my game on this.....if you say it couldn t work you suck....
Then you find someone who actually can really shut down that strategy and you are just helpless.

Instead a noob like me, could think "hey that actually might not work against everybody" and have a B plan ready.

It sucks to be noob like me.....

Thats the problem when you sound like you're a big shot whining in the majority of your post. Instead, lay out (in a considered approach) whatever is bothering you at the moment and collectively come up with a solution.Look at the way you post (in particular, the raph wishlist 2.0 sticky). Don't be surprised if you upset people because of your inability to post with even a shred of humility.

I hougt that scIV experience already shown how some character can win big tournaments with the surprise effect, but lose badly if they didn t prepare for the worse....(Zas but also the scary Hilde comes to mind....).

I'm not sure if hilde winning is considered a "surprise effect".

 

[darkfender]

Thats the problem when you sound like you're a big shot whining in the majority of your post.

did i already say i am not english or american?
its not easy for me to express cordiality in a foreign language....

Instead, lay out (in a considered approach) whatever is bothering you at the moment and collectively come up with a solution.

identifying problems is the first stage.....but is not denying them that a solution can be found. (that could also be....let namco know.....before getting another nerf like scIV)

I'm not sure if hilde winning is considered a "surprise effect".

no but it was her losing in the most absurd ways XD (xianghua and yoda lol but many others also).
They thougt doom combo was enough to win tournaments....

 

[WuHT]

did i already say i am not english or american?
its not easy for me to express cordiality in a foreign language....

You're still caught up on trying to be "gramatically" correct. People arn't upset with that as much as your inappropriately opinionated comments.

identifying problems is the first stage.....but is not denying them that a solution can be found. (that could also be....let namco know.....before getting another nerf like scIV)

You sound like you're defending yourself because there are some people here delusional enough to deny the problems. That shows your inherent misunderstanding of what the many posters here have been patiently trying to explain to you:

If there is a problem, lets talk about how to fix it instead of how it ruins your day.
I don't want you to again misinterpret me and assume that I'm now in denial or some other off topic thing that you seem to love bringing up.

I don't even know what i'm trying to address, because lately your behaviour hasn't been that bad, but i figure I owe you a response.