Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

236B have always had huge whiffing issue...
It can be jumped (rofl it works on scV also)
It can whiff against alexandra (again from scIV)

I used to love the move but it lost most his appeal when they reworked range of characters....now raph being one of many and not the top in his stuff... then the patch arrived.....

What's the only thing raph has now?
66(B) you seem all to underestimate it as a short range move....taking the role scIV 44AB had on block as a prep enabler that won t let opponent step (if opponent tries he will eat BB) its a pity prep now sucks anyway :/
44B still awesome (cervy BS moves are decent but worse)


But having lost his pokes with scV, and with the patch his spacing control, and pressure tools other than mobility (backdash nerf), raph just become a BAD punisher with lot of characters doing that better than him

So as long as opponent plays the poking game you have almost no chance.....
Again i think that without letting namco know that we are really tired of raph hate we won t go anywhere...expecially pretending raph is something better than rock in scIV.
 
Fendante said:
Haha comparing Raph to Cervantes. Come on, you know Cervy has always been god tier. Don't focus on mr. pirate.
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Sorry, but this was the whole point of the challenge, there are enough characters who do what Raph does, but better. Maybe not all things, but Raph doesn't really do anything WELL. He does some things "OK", but I have never played Raph and said "Oh SHIT, he is SO FUCKING GOOD at X" after the patch, while pre-patch X=Spacing (an only spacing with 22B).

I had a big reply typed up but I stopped caring and it is hard to confirm some moves speed since the patch, but first, nobody fears 16 damage off Raph's i12 "punisher" - just like nobody fears AA punishment (which does more damage) and at i16, MUCH of the cast gets better damage than whatever you are using. Finally, 4(B) is unsafe (always stab punishable on block), just wanted to point that out.
 
4(B) on block is -1, how do you avoid an i14 TC mid move from prep? You don't, you eat it since you can't block step or interrupt.
 
umm who has an i14 tc mid that wouldnt be caught by prep 4? qlwo b4 you say 2a, se makes most 2a whiff.

ive adjusted my style to space for what dmg i can and blow meter for huge dmg when they get in. SEb, 3b, prep bbb into CE is 115 dmg. add 10 if you get them with 1a when they land. ending the 4b series into ce gives 88 and prep k Ch gives like 90 something. the damage is there, you just have to blow meter.
 
@Darkfender Thanks for the info on Cervy :)

1- Does Cervy i11 actually have the same range as Raph's i12 and i16? Does it leave Cervy in advantage on hit? Btw, is it that cross move?

2- Every character has BEs. We know it :) Oh... and they all spend meter.

3- Cervy's long range i16 is unsafe as hell, but good point.

4- Shocked.

5- Oh, yeah... his B throw has changed. Impressive.

6- Not that I'm doubting it, but which move(s) are you talking about? iGDR from FC? Also, don't forget about Prep 4 kinda making 4(B) safe.

7- Funny that the thing I was least certain of happened to be the 'most debatable' one.
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Lets keep this going, if you don't mind. It's being informative, at least to me.

And, btw, when I state this stuff I'm not attempting to disprove you guys. I was actually answering a question, based on my very limited 130 hours experience.

I actually think 'you' are probably right in terms of Raph having becomed non-viable, but I still see the possibility of "maybe these guys are just not using Prep 4 and Prep K enough". I guess time (and discussions) will tell (me... since you guys may already know).
 
pyrrha's 236B is probably one of the easier moves for raph to deal with if he opts to prep, as prep4 aGI's, SE evades surprisingly well, and prepBBB can CH her due to the poor TC frames it has.

Pyrrha omega's DNS B i'm not so sure thoguh
 
Solid_Altair said:
@Darkfender Thanks for the info on Cervy :)

1- Does Cervy i11 actually have the same range as Raph's i12 and i16? Does it leave Cervy in advantage on hit? Btw, is it that cross move?

well its comparable in range, it tracks and no its not advantage BUUUT false advantage for a bad mixup that won t even reach the damage of that single punish makes no sense.
I mean 45 dmg mid range tracking i11, with huge pushback that move is simply BROKEN.
It could single handedly beat all raph mixup when in scIV was i13.

2- Every character has BEs. We know it :) Oh... and they all spend meter.

Does every character sucks 100% without BE? i don t think so.....also i confess i HATE BE and CE.
Its a comeback system born for casual players....(see pre release interview).

3- Cervy's long range i16 is unsafe as hell, but good point.

a punisher is a punisher......

4- Shocked.

6- Not that I'm doubting it, but which move(s) are you talking about? iGDR from FC? Also, don't forget about Prep 4 kinda making 4(B) safe.

cervantes have always been one of the best tech croucher.... now few of his old absurd combo enabler have become safe -.- also....

7- Funny that the thing I was least certain of happened to be the 'most debatable' one.
there is no GB data for cerv consider i used to CF even with mitsu in SCIV once i had the data...so i cannot develop a GB strategy without numbers :|
Everybody has GB moves but not all of them are good or spammable....

Old raph CF game was hindered a lot for example losing 66A+B and 66B+K as his BEST cf tools...now they do average CF damage. (i don t really understand why 66B+K is so bad in scV really i loved 11B)
Also old prep A+B was something awesome (difficult to use and unsafe but it won rounds >_>)
____________

Lets keep this going, if you don't mind. It's being informative, at least to me.

And, btw, when I state this stuff I'm not attempting to disprove you guys. I was actually answering a question, based on my very limited 130 hours experience.

I actually think 'you' are probably right in terms of Raph having becomed non-viable, but I still see the possibility of "maybe these guys are just not using Prep 4 and Prep K enough". I guess time (and discussions) will tell (me... since you guys may already know).
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What i am saying is clear...
As always if opponent try the pressing game as 90% of average players do, well raph is still a beast and will forever be.

But if opponent goes to 8wayrun learns matchups and stuff, he can really see he can outdamage raph playing a SAFE poking game without charging CE bar.....

That will show you what's raph problem...
Its always been but now skill is simply not enough to overcome it plain and simple.....

Infact what imho really put raph on yoda tier is the nerf to SEA that was too much for me.....i could accept everything else but that....
 
Fendante said:
But what can we really do to save our favorite character???
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tweet them asking nerf's logic....

I think there is no HATE, its more like they ignore him because there aren t famous players using him.
(i mean look at what they did with 1.01 but also in the last patch with astaroth -.-).
 
I've been working on trying to add 2_8B+K to my game (being his only non-stance mid that stuns on normal hit) but that move really needs more horizontal range to work as a prediction. Even if you anticipate a step correctly, hitting them with this thing is nearly impossible with such a small hit area.

Trying to use it offensively isn't working either. There are some moves that when guarded will put the opponent off axis (such as 236B, 9A, 4A and 22K), so they will get hit by a followup 2_8B+K if they don't move or block, but most of these "setups" don't have the advantage on guard to trap anyone or initiate a mixup so it's kind of a useless find. Right now (facing right) 4A (hit) 2B+K is the only remotely useful pressure that's come out of this, but if the angle is off then they stumble too far away for 2B+K to hit.

If anyone wants to try and figure out a more active use for this move, I'm open to suggestions.
 
@Gojira

Props for working on it. The 4A setup doesn't sound bad.

I have no freaking idea as to why the side cantarellas still exist. They should at least track very well to the respective side, huh... and... like... kill the guy for 2 rounds as a reward. So freaking hard to land.

BTW... does anyone have a use for the normal cantarella (6B+K)? A single strike short range mid that causes little damage. What does the stun give us?

I actually prefer SC3 Cantarellas. They had a longer reach and the animation made more sense. It was an actual feint, a broken spin. The SC4/SC5 cantarella is more about pure posing.

Anyway, I just don't use them (except for the BT one) and I wonder if I'm missing something.
 
@Fendante

They did change SC4 Raph into SC3 stuff for SCV. So, the hope for old Cantarella is not silly.

1B wasn't in 4 and is in V

6BB is more like SC3, than 4

8A wasn't in 4 and is actually the old 236A of 3
 
Why did you say 'sorry'? O_o I've just totally agreed with ya.

I think the way I spoke about the hope for Cantarella needle was ambiguous. Ma' bad, then.

I meant that hoping for the old Cantarella is a good thing. It's not so unlikely that they'll change it back to SC3 style (here I go again... with a double negative -_-). I mean: they did dig some old stuff, brought back some SC3 stuff while removing SC4 stuff, for SCV. So, they can still do it with cantarella for SC6, bring back the good old SC3 cantarellas. We're supposed to hope :D
 
2_8B+K is our most damaging step killer. On the other hand, it's hard to land even you guess right, and on top of being a 50/50 step killer the move is too slow to use to kill strings with step.
4B+K should be used in the same manner as 66A+Bg, and 6B+K is a decent alt taunt; in fact we have 5 taunts to choose from: K+G, B+K, 6B+K, 2_8B+K and picking raph.
 
HolyForce said:
Shame that B+K and 4A+B GIs are virtually useless. Anyone find a way these are ever useful? Their windows are too late to throw into the mix after most all blocked attacks.
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They are pretty hard, but I find that the b+k is incredibly useful against that vert attack you know is coming, against b spammers in particular. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING on this game beats throwing that out to follow with that swag back throw for the win.



Lol, I know i'm playing terribly, I just used an alt account to go hunting. I'm not really that bad, honestly...
 
Mr.Hai said:
2_8B+K is our most damaging step killer. On the other hand, it's hard to land even you guess right, and on top of being a 50/50 step killer the move is too slow to use to kill strings with step.
4B+K should be used in the same manner as 66A+Bg, and 6B+K is a decent alt taunt; in fact we have 5 taunts to choose from: K+G, B+K, 6B+K, 2_8B+K and picking raph.
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LOL

@Carstien

LOL. He didn't duck, even after eating a bunch of throws xD
 
Solid_Altair said:
LOL. He didn't duck, even after eating a bunch of throws xD
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Can they duck after a successful B+K before you throw em? I have only had this game about a week, and most of it has been spent playing Pat. I figured I will have either him or Raph as my main...
 
Mr.Hai said:
2_8B+K is our most damaging step killer. On the other hand, it's hard to land even you guess right, and on top of being a 50/50 step killer the move is too slow to use to kill strings with step.
4B+K should be used in the same manner as 66A+Bg, and 6B+K is a decent alt taunt; in fact we have 5 taunts to choose from: K+G, B+K, 6B+K, 2_8B+K and picking raph.
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6 taunts. You forgot the best of them all!! G cancel that 66A+B...On your knees!!
 
About 2_8B+K:

Great move to throw out if a B+K is successful. If you don't wanna burn meter, you can usually have a BT grab (72 damage) vs 2_8B+K NH stun combo for 80ish damage mixup once you are at +12 frame advantage.

Just be familiar with which move, as sometimes you have do 2b+K but more often than not you'll end up connecting with 8B+K
 
JayShadow said:
Yes they can duck it. But it does often take people a while to catch on. They're too busy raging about free back throws to realize it's not free.
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eating 33KB in place of the throw ...
old VE like this gives a good 50% mixup...

B+K is bad as hell btw because it starts 8 frames later and if you really expect a vertical a quickstep would GRANT you more damage.....instead of netting you few damage and a 50% mixup.

B+K is raph alt taunt....nothing more...
 
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