PrettyLady
[08] Mercenary
I personally haven't had much luck with 4a+b, or 8a+b :(((
Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion
- Thread starter WuHT
- Start date
Habast
[12] Conqueror
I've definitely had better luck with 8A+B then 4A+B. Though, that could be because I admittedly didn't try it very much after getting stuffed the first 10 times I tried it. Maybe I just need to work on the timing of it.
I tweeted Daishi about concerns over the nerf and a request to buff Raph up a bit in any future patch. I'd encourage others to do so as well, respectfully of course. They've made it plenty clear that they're willing to listen to their fans' opinions and ideas.
Azazel
[12] Conqueror
So after a week of training with Raph all my positivism went down the toilet :S Raph is without doubt the weakest character in SCV, we really need to request a buff and a big one!
Gamegenie222
[10] Knight
I will do that later. If they don't decide to buff him alot like Aeon or someone of that level, just return his pre-patch tools back.
taffertier
[10] Knight
He's still a blast to play as, but yeah. I'm always having fun until i run into people who know all of Raphael's weaknesses. Thing is, Raph needs a lot of things. He's not particularly fast, he's actually on the slow side. He's even more unsafe than he used to be, his damage output is still subpar, his combo potential is very limited, he's very susceptible to stepping, has very weak step killers and only his vertical range is good. Not even better than most, it's just good.
taffertier
[10] Knight
I just want the Brave Edge to Prep K to be input later for a fake out. The way it's used now people will always know that the second kick is coming because you have to brave edge it right away. Allowing it to be delayed for a mix up would actually make it a good BE. Mitsu can delay his 3B BE until almost the very end of the animation, Raph should be allowed to do it with his kick.
Gojira
[10] Knight
I wish Prep K BE would wall splat consistently. Sometimes I'll hit it right up against the wall and they just fly in the corner without hitting anything.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Yeah it always bothered me. As it is right now, its only guarnateed on the prep4 aGI. Given prep K's propensity to whiff against stepping opponents, having the 2nd hit of prep kBE re-track (while being input delay-able) would increase it's useage outside of guaranteed situations turning into a somewhat positive gamble for raph.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
A+BA does pretty massive damage though. Turning raphael into a ground hitting monster will certainly have him nerfed elsewhere.
I had a dream that 1A was secretly buffed that it actually tracked somewhat decent at range.
I had a dream that 1A was secretly buffed that it actually tracked somewhat decent at range.
Mr.Hai
[09] Warrior
With the removal of 2A+B and the global low nerf I agree. Yet if at least the first one/two hit(s) hit grounded that would be acceptable I feel; at least it would prevent random crumple whiffing.WuHT said:
1A got nerfed far too much for a move that is essentially a vertical poke. (In fact the only way to nerf it any more was damage in the first place).
I'm all for having few hard hitting combos that lend to a single playstyle (22B), even old Prep~A to an extent, however if raph is supposed to play a poking/spacing game, why are moves like 3B, 1A, Prep~A+B, 44B etc so lackluster and/or "force" Prep? If we are (also) supposed to play a pressure game why is Prep/SE as it is? And if we trade horis for verts, why are many of our verts the same as in 4, now in a game where damage is higher and movement is faster?
Finaly while having more complications makes a char more fun, the crumple issues are a bit too much (the BBB,8,A+BA stun is fine). I'm not sure if it can be easily fixed, but I would rather have a guarenteed option other than 2B and CE after a stun. Either give a longer stun time + random direction factor, or allow for consistent followups.
As long as he taunts and has 6BBB (from SC2) exists people will complain that he's cheap XD.Fendante said:
Solid_Altair
[09] Warrior
Yeah. A beginner recently told me: 'nice spamming.'
Anyway, if Imay add my two cents: I humbly think we'd profit more if we'd keep our thoughts to the specifics.
I mean, how exactly are "3B, 1A, Prep~A+B, 44B" lacklusters?
What is wrong with 'forcing' Prep? Prettu much any move that allow entering a stance with good frames will have lame frames if you don't enter the stance. I might be wrong, but I think this apply to most characters.
What is wrong with Prep/SE to play a pressure game?
I can't help but think most of Raph's supposed problems come from not using Prep K and Prep 4, enough.
However, as I don't have an alternate, yet, my knowledge about other characters is quite limited and I may as well be underestimating them and, therefore, overestimating Raph. Still, this is too big a picture. Lets talk specifics, even if it means other characters specifics moves in comparison to Raph.
Anyway, if Imay add my two cents: I humbly think we'd profit more if we'd keep our thoughts to the specifics.
I mean, how exactly are "3B, 1A, Prep~A+B, 44B" lacklusters?
What is wrong with 'forcing' Prep? Prettu much any move that allow entering a stance with good frames will have lame frames if you don't enter the stance. I might be wrong, but I think this apply to most characters.
What is wrong with Prep/SE to play a pressure game?
I can't help but think most of Raph's supposed problems come from not using Prep K and Prep 4, enough.
However, as I don't have an alternate, yet, my knowledge about other characters is quite limited and I may as well be underestimating them and, therefore, overestimating Raph. Still, this is too big a picture. Lets talk specifics, even if it means other characters specifics moves in comparison to Raph.
taffertier
[10] Knight
I think the hitbox of Raphs 44B should work similarly to mitsu's 4B. The hitbox for this move doesnt come out until raph returns to his original position for the strike, where has mitsu's is extended the moment he lunges back towards the opponent again. Raph tends to get hit out of his 44B even when you use it to predict an attack he would avoid. Also i think it would benefit from slight tracking. His 44B is very steppable (Like most of his moves) yet mitsu's 4B is used for the same purpose but has good tracking on it for whatever reason.
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
.......
taffertier
[10] Knight
Go on?
taffertier
[10] Knight
My biggest gripe about prep is that once you enter the stance he doesnt have any fast hitting mids. All his mids from prep involve doing SE first. There is the option of his kick but it doesnt really come out fast enough against people who just want to use some auto duck attack to hit him out of his prep set ups. Not sure if this was intentially designed for him to not have any fast way to get out of prep or quickly hit mid but it is a big annoyance of mine. It's partially the reason why facing Viola is so difficult. Her 8A+B shuts down all of raphs options in prep.
youngfox
[10] Knight
im assuming 8A+B is her move where she ducks and then jumps followed by the orb attack right. cuz if it is then that post is a perfect example of what tick me off about this board. did you test the fact that 8 A+B shuts down all of prep b4 spouting off misinformation? prep 4 catches 8A+B or if you wanna be annoying you can 3b with no prep and block the vertical uppercut and then sidestep to land 33kBE b4 the orb hits you. i found this out after being in training mode for literally 7 minutes.
taffertier
[10] Knight
Prep 4 catches it with very specific timing. Perhaps it is an exaggeration but when you only have one option in prep against something it is rather overwhelming. If all you can do is hope to bait the 8A+B by not doing prep then that severely limits the whole stance which is what he's apparently designed around. I dont see how you can be upset about it being almost completely true, you have two options. Bait the attack or do prep 4 which doesnt even have the good of a GI window. You have to time it very precisely and even then if they see you trying to bait the 8A+B they merely have to delay it to catch you on it's massive recovery.
youngfox
[10] Knight
you guys really dont understand mind games at all. if they have to delay an i19 move then that leaves them open to prepkBE. you have more options if you just think b4 you dismiss things. also raph is one of the few characters whom you cant tell if he is in stance or not immediately after his opener, its a real gd trait to have
EDIT for some grammar
EDIT for some grammar
Solid_Altair
[09] Warrior
@taffertier
" There is the option of his kick but it doesnt really come out fast enough against people who just want to use some auto duck attack to hit him out of his prep set ups."
Hey, dude. When you enter Prep on hit, you +10 frames. That makes Prep K an effective i10. So... I think it can stop all techs.
If you enter Prep on block or whiff, you're in trouble, and you're supposed to be in trouble. Escaping against a good anti-Raph player, in this situation isn't easy, nor is it supposed to be. Some characters may even have guaranteed options to get you.
However, remember you may not enter Prep, sometimes.
And entering Prep on hit is frequent, because it comes from his basic punishments.
" There is the option of his kick but it doesnt really come out fast enough against people who just want to use some auto duck attack to hit him out of his prep set ups."
Hey, dude. When you enter Prep on hit, you +10 frames. That makes Prep K an effective i10. So... I think it can stop all techs.
If you enter Prep on block or whiff, you're in trouble, and you're supposed to be in trouble. Escaping against a good anti-Raph player, in this situation isn't easy, nor is it supposed to be. Some characters may even have guaranteed options to get you.
However, remember you may not enter Prep, sometimes.
And entering Prep on hit is frequent, because it comes from his basic punishments.
taffertier
[10] Knight
I guess i could just try not to enter prep on block, it's just it opens up some really good damaging options it's hard to not want to go into it. If i try and use it only on hit it would certainly make all his prep options better. I just need to train myself to not try it on block, even if it does lead to some good options then. Risking it doesnt seem worth it, seeing as Raph needs to make every opening and opportunity count. I guess i shouldnt feel like he needs a better way to deal with auto techs and steps on block if it's meant to be used on punishes where you can confirm the hit.