Raphael : Patch Changes and Discussion

SE A at -6 doesn't make him unplayable.... unless you really suck...... if it was -60... ok that'll make him unplayable....

-6 means it's safe but you can't continue offense mindlessly.... it still makes SE A very good move regardless

it's like Aeon 66A it's more than -6 for sure.... but that's still one of the best moves....

-LAU
 
The comparison with Aeon's 66A fails once you take into consideration the fact that it comes out of a dash rather than a stationary stance. Aeon can do 66A anywhere, anytime, and can do a host of other things instead. Raphael in SE means that he is going to do 1 of 3 moves or nothing.
LAU said:
-6 means it's safe but you can't continue offense mindlessly
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Shorten that to "-6 means it's safe but you can't continue offense" and I agree. SE A hands momentum to the opponent. I mean, why not have it be even, since you don't get anything for hitting it other than "hurray, Raphael connected with a horizontal attack"? Or more accurately, "hurray, the opponent is not smacking me out of SE"?
-DC:sc5nm1:
 
DigitalCount said:
The comparison with Aeon's 66A fails once you take into consideration the fact that it comes out of a dash rather than a stationary stance. Aeon can do 66A anywhere, anytime, and can do a host of other things instead. Raphael in SE means that he is going to do 1 of 3 moves or nothing.

Shorten that to "-6 means it's safe but you can't continue offense" and I agree. SE A hands momentum to the opponent. I mean, why not have it be even, since you don't get anything for hitting it other than "hurray, Raphael connected with a horizontal attack"? Or more accurately, "hurray, the opponent is not smacking me out of SE"?
-DC:sc5nm1:
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if the opponent is smacking you out of SE.... it means..

1) you haven't trained him enough in Prep and he completely disregards the options there..

2) you're being way too predictable...

3) he guessed right.. just like you guessed wrong.


most of the time.. if you're using SE it should prety much just be 3... and it's not a 50/50 guess it should be in your favor... you shouldn't get smacked out of SE that often... and if you're then you're probably falling in 1 or 2.

-LAU
 
@lau: its not a concept of attacking mindlessly...Its that you are taking away one of HYSTORICAL raph staple moves...
SEA was neutral back in scIV and raph already sucked...don t tell me that its good to risk to enter SE losing 20 frames with a HUGE risk just to have random moves that can be blocked.

That makes sense taking risk and get nothing......
Why mindlessly defend a BAD nerf instead?
What will be next? removing advantage on hit so you cannot mindlessly attack again?

Its not that on hit seA will cut in half oppoent health so what s the deal?

Solid_Altair said:
I just point out that the improved frames we got on the Patch are useful. And sometimes even the good players will block the last hit, unless they're the European Raph Terminators we still hope you'll show us.
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try for example ugoivy ...(an italian living in ireland)
He JG 90% last hit on reaction....
If you have a stick JG is quite easy...


What do you mean by coreographic? And even without CE the new stuns will lead to more damage than pre-patch, on CH.
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overall i would say nobody will eat the last B and in NH you lose 20 damage.

Seriously: I hardly lack meter. Maybe some terminator can poke me to death without charging my meter enough, though. I'd like to see that, whether or not it'd happen to me.
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any decent player with basics....as i said try ANY decent patroclos....any one spamming 1K (not literally obviously) will go.....expecially if he uses that strategy only against raph.


And I don't judge characters by training mode. Sometimes you seem to me like you judge characters by looking at frame data sheets and assuming the players will (almost) always do the theoricatically correct thing and will have awesome reactions all the time.
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i judge characters in the hands of almost flawless gamers because as long as i commit mistakes i have room to work to improve....ut when we come to play on opponent MU ignorance and mistakes than we shouldreally change character.


I only felt outclassed by one guy, so far. He uses Mitsu, has 89% and has literally more than 10 times the amount of online fights I do. He was kind enough to give rematches. We fought 5 times. I lost all of them. I don't blame Raph. I didn't use Prep4 and PrepK, enough. I had awful reactions to his 4B. And from the furstraion born out of these mistakes, I ended up sucking at other aspects, as well.
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trust me..prepatch i struggled even against average mitsu....
Changing character using the MU knowledge would result in easy wins....
Also a well known french had the same problem.


In order to 'safely' say Raph is trash, one would need a quite a lot of data to back it up:
* Some Players of very high and similar level.
* These must be comfortable as Raph and at least a few other characters (at the very least 1, actually)
* They'd play a bunch of match ups, Raph being in all of them (there should be Raph mirror matches, too)

Then, if you confirm the high and tight level of the players, by the matches in general, including the mirrors... aaand Raph sucks badly in most match-ups, then yeah, Raph is kinda trash.
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there are many ways to judge a character....but actually i've already done that ....

Are you on PS3 and do you leave in the Americas? Maybe we could fight to further a part od these tests and maybe you could teach me something.
___________
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I play for "fun" but i am actually very competitive.....and i play with people from eu that attend lot of tournaments across europe...
You'll have the chance to play them for sure ._. instead i ragequit scV at least until i finsh a couple of games >_> i left behind.....but really for me the lack of neutral seA is "the end of the world".

The aggravating thing is when they step your Prep A, to your right. It's quite a blind spot and I think it can only be remedied by delaying Prep A a little.
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raph prep tracks if delayed...even prep B will track 180° at proper distance......didn t test it enough on scV but i saw it many times...
 
said by the one who left sieg for patsuka and was studying ivy in scIV -.-
And yes actually i think raph is worse than rock was in scIV ..and i am not the only one.

For sure all i am reading is you canput CE here, CE there...well if raph had unlimited CE it would be broken tier having an i12 TC,BS, unfortunately he doesn t. so its better saving it as a punisher......

So i stop playing the game and i just cry :D
They took away both the things i liked in my fave game (i payd for so i have the right to complain) and now i have to wait they fix at least one (because rugi is top tier....no matter he is boring as hell to play...he won't change).
 
@darkfender

Thx for the tip on ugoivy.

As for:

What do you mean by coreographic? And even without CE the new stuns will lead to more damage than pre-patch, on CH.​
"overall i would say nobody will eat the last B and in NH you lose 20 damage."

There is still the CH potential in combos.
___________

And yet another thing:

I find weird that you miss being even after SE A, so much, mostly because you tend to say going to SE is so hard. I do get your reasoning that SE should offer a bigger (the old) reward. But since you get to the stance so rarely, those -6 should really affect your game so much. And even in that disadvantage, you can still be offensive with steps or 4A+B. Strictly speaking, it's a nerf; but you can turn it into different set ups that may end up allowing more meterless damage than the old version did.

I hope you finish those other games and get back to SCV, soon, be or not be with Raph.
___________

Also, on:

Why mindlessly defend a BAD nerf instead?
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Not that I took it to the heart or anything, but I think that was uncalled for, even as a response to 'mindlessly attack'. I think he meant midlessly attack in the sense that we could use pretty much anything at even frames, while now we need to be more specific. He wasn't calling one side of the argument 'mindless'.

Though we're not sugar-coating our words to one another (I don't think we should), I think we're still discussing as gentlemen. And even though I share your impression that the SE A didn't need a nerf, cause SE is hard to achieve and would deserve the 'neutral on block' quality... I still think the nerf is debatable. Finding an objective answer for this would be very hard. The only way I see it is to verify if the move becomes underused in mirror matches.
 
[quote="Solid_Altair, post: 450229, member: 7669]
And yet another thing:

I find weird that you miss being even after SE A, so much, mostly because you tend to say going to SE is so hard. I do get your reasoning that SE should offer a bigger (the old) reward. But since you get to the stance so rarely, those -6 should really affect your game so much. And even in that disadvantage, you can still be offensive with steps or 4A+B. Strictly speaking, it's a nerf; but you can turn it into different set ups that may end up allowing more meterless damage than the old version did.
[/quote]
instead it makes sense but i didn t say why...
i trained hard prep4, spacing and other tools checking every possible answer and how to avoid it.....in order to be able to use SEA...time wasted

Not that I took it to the heart or anything, but I think that was uncalled for, even as a response to 'mindlessly attack'. I think he meant midlessly attack in the sense that we could use pretty much anything at even frames, while now we need to be more specific. He wasn't calling one side of the argument 'mindless'.
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translation issues....i thougt it wasn t offensive...translating it literally it wouldn t....sot want meant to be..... btw it didn t made sense
SeA is not a spammable tool...you have to work to use it (26-36 frames unsafe window ON HIT), risking a transition and the +0 on block is a reward....


And even though I share your impression that the SE A didn't need a nerf, cause SE is hard to achieve and would deserve the 'neutral on block' quality... I still think the nerf is debatable. Finding an objective answer for this would be very hard. The only way I see it is to verify if the move becomes underused in mirror matches.
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you forgive seAlphaA was +0 on scIV also despite tracking just one side and being high...but game mechanics were different and raph had tools to discourage step attempts (SEAlphaB tracked the other side a little if well spaced also damage was huge compared to standards of the game.....).

So what doesn t made sense is nerfing every single staple move rpah had turning it in generic moves without appeal....

That leads to the saddest question i came to, after the patch :"why should i use raphael now?"
I couldn t find an answer aside for aestethic reasons....
 
"why should i use raphael now?"
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"Because Raph is who I've been using and getting another character up to the level that my Raph was at is very difficult"

This is really the only answer. Having played Raph since SC2, starting over with someone new, and getting up to tournament level, is very difficult (and it doesn't help that I can't play my PS3 till the weekend, probably). I can still win a lot with Raph, but that doesn't mean he is good, or worth playing, it just makes me sad.
 
darkfender said:
translation issues....i thougt it wasn t offensive...translating it literally it wouldn t....sot want meant to be..... btw it didn t made sense
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Oh. OK, then :) I'm posting some Post-Patch Raph videos in the videos thread. Maybe some of them will have the potential to lighten you up, a little.
 
He's got other stuff he can use, and it's not like 22B is completely useless now. It just means we gotta actually learn to use all his stuff well before we make up our minds. Until the patch came out 90% of Raph play was identical i.e. how to land 22B 3 times to win a round.
 
piggy said:
"Because Raph is who I've been using and getting another character up to the level that my Raph was at is very difficult"

This is really the only answer. Having played Raph since SC2, starting over with someone new, and getting up to tournament level, is very difficult (and it doesn't help that I can't play my PS3 till the weekend, probably). I can still win a lot with Raph, but that doesn't mean he is good, or worth playing, it just makes me sad.
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This being said... Raphael still isn't that bad. I have been earnestly using ZWEI lately, learning combos, techtraps, pressure, etc., and honestly... I prefer Raphael. ZWEI has been gaining momentum since the twitchTV videos from a particular player (at least, gaining momentum in his own SA), so I decided to do some SCIENCE

Winning with Raphael takes more time since he does not do as much damage, but it is also less stressful. ZWEI has to play up close and take big gambles... maybe it isn't my playstyle, but it is very easy to counter his strategy, and it seems especially easy to do this with Raphael.

That being said, this is just one matchup, and it's not like ZWEI is Nightmare or anything.
 
So guys, I was thinking... this is just me doing that "on paper it sounds good so it must be good" thing I always do, but maybe we're supposed to be countering the opponent more with our aGIs and SE. Raph can get some of his best damage and momentum from them, right? And he's got a pretty big number of them too (is it the most out of the cast?). Perhaps those things are what we're missing in his new game.
 
Prep4 strikes me as a prediction tool. I'm pretty sure that off a successful prep4, anything goes in prep.

I've always likes 4A+B, but never had great success in using it.

never in my life been able to make 8B+K work. (i'm honestly not even sure that's the input)
 
Leonyx said:
So guys, I was thinking... this is just me doing that "on paper it sounds good so it must be good" thing I always do, but maybe we're supposed to be countering the opponent more with our aGIs and SE. Raph can get some of his best damage and momentum from them, right? And he's got a pretty big number of them too (is it the most out of the cast?). Perhaps those things are what we're missing in his new game.
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I use all of them. They're not easy to use:

* I do B+K mostly as pure anticipation and preferably when I have a good HP advantage.

* 4A+B usually requires some especific set ups, like after SE A, and that you study your opponent's patterns.

* 8A+B is good when you fall far from your enemy and he rushes towards you, so you get up and immediatly peform 8A+B... saves my ass every once in a while. Also use when you're close to even and at kiss range. It's not bad. The second hit is vertical but it tracks, even if the first one whiff.

* Prep4 doesn't require much anticipation, since it can be used as a matter of range, too. Performing PrepK(BE) after the actual aGI is being my greatest challenge lately... I just can't freaking do it. Gotta improve my reactions.

* And the automatic SE is good when the opponent dodges your prep, is not close enough to throw you (in which case you should manually SE) and you expect I high attack. That's because you wouldn't win anything with the manual SE - you may simply wander off in case he hesitates to attack you.

So, most the actual GIs probably won't revolutionize your game, but using Prep4 at least as a spacing tool is critical.

Oh... and try not to develop the bad habit of perfoming Prep4 or SE by hold the direction button. I guess I caught this bad habit from SC4 SE Alpha and SE Beta, as holding down was a good way of going to SE Alpha and Beta. Well, in SC5, you just need to tap, which is very important for Prep4. If you hold, you may perform an extra Prep4 on accident.

You can use Prep4 aGI even while BT. It's so fun :)
 
Solid_Altair said:
I use all of them. They're not easy to use:

* I do B+K mostly as pure anticipation and preferably when I have a good HP advantage.

* 4A+B usually requires some especific set ups, like after SE A, and that you study your opponent's patterns.

* 8A+B is good when you fall far from your enemy and he rushes towards you, so you get up and immediatly peform 8A+B... saves my ass every once in a while. Also use when you're close to even and at kiss range. It's not bad. The second hit is vertical but it tracks, even if the first one whiff.

* Prep4 doesn't require much anticipation, since it can be used as a matter of range, too. Performing PrepK(BE) after the actual aGI is being my greatest challenge lately... I just can't freaking do it. Gotta improve my reactions.

* And the automatic SE is good when the opponent dodges your prep, is not close enough to throw you (in which case you should manually SE) and you expect I high attack. That's because you wouldn't win anything with the manual SE - you may simply wander off in case he hesitates to attack you.

So, most the actual GIs probably won't revolutionize your game, but using Prep4 at least as a spacing tool is critical.

Oh... and try not to develop the bad habit of perfoming Prep4 or SE by hold the direction button. I guess I caught this bad habit from SC4 SE Alpha and SE Beta, as holding down was a good way of going to SE Alpha and Beta. Well, in SC5, you just need to tap, which is very important for Prep4. If you hold, you may perform an extra Prep4 on accident.

You can use Prep4 aGI even while BT. It's so fun :)
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Hmm... okay. It was a bad theory anyways. I suppose it's just something I should work on, since I have pretty crappy defensive gameplay in my game.

That is a good point though about the SE and Prep4 thing. Sometimes I think I'm just tapping 4, but I end up doing Prep 4 and then SE so I end up screwing myself over.
 
Solid_Altair said:
I'm curious as to what you meant by that.
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Basically, ZWEI is not "top-tier" (regardless of where Nightmare sits in the "tier"). If I really study a character that places well in tournaments versus Raphael, my findings may be completely different.
 
Gwyidion said:
Prep4 strikes me as a prediction tool. I'm pretty sure that off a successful prep4, anything goes in prep.

I've always likes 4A+B, but never had great success in using it.

never in my life been able to make 8B+K work. (i'm honestly not even sure that's the input)
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lol 4A+B is what prevent most opponent attacking you after those fantastic +0 lows

Ex 11K ....then 2A....you'll see most opponent will 2a also and so go for a clash.
Replace 2A with 4A+B...
Also when opponent overuse AA....

4A+B is ok nothing awesome but still ok.
 
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