Nightmare General Discussion/Q&A

I say it isn't damage, his always had damage. But a couple buffs to speed, A+B, and safety and one other really important factor Guard damage. In SC4 he seriously lacked in this department. But in V it puts so much pressure against turtlers something he had no answer for in 4.

Really anti NM in SC4 came down to block and punishing and breaking throws. Also the fact that safe movement is no longer in the game helps a bit. Since his anti step is godlike.

Key buffs. 3B from i23 to i21. Flap Jacks from i22 to i19, 3AA from i23 -23 to i19 -2o with pushback. A+B buff is significant. GS B being safe. 66K from i16, -5 on NH to i15, +2 on NH.( although in 4 it was only -13 on block to the now -16)

His backdash was decent, his step was very good in 4. WRAA(22AA) was also a strat we used. But basically his whiff punishment is way better because of the speed of 3B and 3AA. He lands this move way more than he used to. And you can't just block and win against NM anymore, he can pressure with guard damage now.
 
Tiamat said:
In one word, damage. He does the damage to justify his unsafety now, unlike in SC4 where his damage was too low. His wall damage is literally doubled in this game. GS K BE is crazy mad good and much better than GS KK ever was. Meter cost is virtually a non issue. It RO from very far, gives a high wallsplat, and the knockdown from it is quite strong even if no RO/wall happened. Backstep buff, Strong guard gauge damage (GS B being safe is killer), and faster 3B all help him immensely as well. Thats really about it IMO

The thing is, a lot of people will say that NM's damage off say, 3B isn't that crazy compared to some other characters. this is true....but it does quite a good amount still, and if you get a RO/wall with it (which is very very common) you are either going to win the round or take 70% of their life away in one go.
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Faster and safer 3AA, better input for 22AA, much, much better gauge damage, hugely improved 6K and a vastly improved A+B too. His ground hit damage is also insane now and all his ground pressure tools are safe or positive on block lol. FC 3B is also sick and if the ground pressure from FC 3B is legit; that has become one of his new best moves.

The loss of SC4 11K, 11B, 6B:B, instant 33B and very nerfed throws however are beginning to hurt though. Im finding that opponents have adapted to playing super passive against Nightmare and it seems to work pretty well. At least online where it is difficult to play a patient guard crush game.


@King- I found his long range whiff punishment was better in SC4. With 6B:B and instant 33B you could reach out and touch your opponent from extreme ranges with limited buffering.

Now the only thing which reachs that far is buffered 33B (which is much harder than instant 33B) and 1B (ewwwww, though I am practicing to use it).
 
Engared said:
@King- I found his long range whiff punishment was better in SC4. With 6B:B and instant 33B you could reach out and touch your opponent from extreme ranges with limited buffering.
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In anycase 33B in 4 is i22, in V it's i20. The biggest Long range whiff punishment nerf is really the range on Aga.

Actually I think SC4's GSKK is better than GSKBE in V. I think it wall carries and rings out better. GSKBE doesn't work on lower walls, and also pushes NM back a bit so it's ringout range isn't as good as it initially appears. While GSKK could combo off of NH WRB, and you could also delay the GS~KK to get more distance.
 
KingAce said:
In anycase 33B in 4 is i22, in V it's i20. The biggest Long range whiff punishment nerf is really the range on Aga.

Actually I think SC4's GSKK is better than GSKBE in V. I think it wall carries and rings out better. GSKBE doesn't work on lower walls, and also pushes NM back a bit so it's ringout range isn't as good as it initially appears. While GSKK could combo off of NH WRB, and you could also delay the GS~KK to get more distance.
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Input alone will delay that and the QS step in built into the move makes it come out slower than 4. How much slower, we will not know. It used to be a very good ground hit in a lot of scenarios and its range was longer in 5 but the in built QS alone makes it a lot weaker in my book.

You would buffer 33B and bam the move would come out immediately. Nowadays after the input, the QS would come out for a split second before the move comes out.

Now I find you have to be stepping for the move to come out instantly and its shorter range really hurts its whiff punishing capabilities at extreme range.
 
Well according to the frame data(which could be wrong) 33B is faster in V regardless of the QS effect.

And I never really used 33B as a long distance whiff punisher, because really who's whiffing long distance against NM? As an interrupter yes. For me the only big difference is that the move isn't as powerful as it was in 4 damage wise. It's not my move.
 
KingAce said:
Well according to the frame data(which could be wrong) 33B is faster in V regardless of the QS effect.
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11_22_33_77_88_99 moves done from neutral don't initiate the attack until after the QS animation, which I think is 10 frames (I'm not 100% positive on the exact amount but I think it's 10 frames). So 33B is slower than it was in IV when done from neutral.

33B → G → 2A+B is mediocre damage, but it doesn't have that annoying tip stun of 3B at long range and also builds absurd meter.
 
What's up with that 4A+B cancel into low throw thing I've seen Nightmares do a lot in tourneys? What's it for?
 
Requiem said:
What's up with that 4A+B cancel into low throw thing I've seen Nightmares do a lot in tourneys? What's it for?
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They're using 4A+B to make the opponent freeze, or start stepping. The flames, although brief, also help to disguise the throw and crouch motion (they'll use it a lot before standard throws too, as well as before anti-step attacks)

Engared said:
Input alone will delay that and the QS step in built into the move makes it come out slower than 4. How much slower, we will not know.
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10 frames slower.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
They're using 4A+B to make the opponent freeze, or start stepping. The flames, although brief, also help to disguise the throw and crouch motion (they'll use it a lot before standard throws too, as well as before anti-step attacks)


10 frames slower.
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10 frames is huge. Massive. If you instinctively press G during your stepping and your opponent whiffs; there is no way you can punish him at extreme range (unless you settle for crappy non-launch 3B).
 
Engared said:
10 frames is huge. Massive. If you instinctively press G during your stepping and your opponent whiffs; there is no way you can punish him at extreme range (unless you settle for crappy non-launch 3B).
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Yeah but Nightmare is pretty fantastic at whiff punishment anyway. You always have 3B and FC3B. Generally nobody can whiffpunish at 'extreme range'. Plus if you are at extreme range, 8-way-running around is less risky so you can often get your tip-range 33B anyway.
 
Seeing how I couldn't find this info anywhere, I tested it myself. Picking an opponent up off the ground with FC A+G/B+G leaves you at +9.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
Yeah but Nightmare is pretty fantastic at whiff punishment anyway. You always have 3B and FC3B. Generally nobody can whiffpunish at 'extreme range'. Plus if you are at extreme range, 8-way-running around is less risky so you can often get your tip-range 33B anyway.
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in SC4, I could punish extreme range whiffs. I mean, I practiced punishing extreme range whiffs. SC5, its much harder.
 
For those of you who are unaware of the glory of high/mid mixups, try training an opponent to duck after iagA by doing two (or even three if you're feeling ballsy and the opponent is slow to adapt) in a row. With sufficient conditioning you can close out a round by doing iagA → 4K BE to hit them when they panic duck in anticipation of another iagA.

Mindgames.
 
Apparently nothing to worry about, they fixed few bugs and nerfed some chars
- no-damage glitches on viola and zwei removed
- mitsu's 236B glitch removed
- ivy and asta's CE can't be ducked BT anymore
- algol's 66A+B: 2nd air hit doesn't float the opponent as high
- zwei's 66A+B recovery increased (including on whiff); 2nd hit has less blockstun
- viola's 6B+K and CE don't force stand on block any more
- leixia's CE has more recovery (no more double CE combo)
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How viable do you all think the W!, 4KK, W!, 3B, 1A, GS K BE tech trap is? I'm considering putting it into use more often. Should I just go for the guaranteed damage or use this tech trap on wall splats?

Non Gameplay related question: What does Nightmare should when he does 22_88B? It sounds like he's saying "insolent" or "incense".​
 
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