Balance Patch Discussion

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When people say op they mean the risk reard for that move is stupidly twisted.

certain characters have shit that can only be stoped with AA, for 20 damage, and if they guess your AA they do their TC launcher and get 100 damage, so then you use 2A instead and they guess it and go back to their original thing and launch you for 100 damage.
So in each instance the ONLY realistic options open are 15 damage 2A and 20 damage AA and each time you risk losing 100.

So certain things can feel op when they're obviously not. but tiras 8B+K, B is.
 
i get what you are saying...i just dont find it to be true.

im not trolling i just dont see how anyone has OP moves in this game.

Like for instance: Pyrrha's 66A which is almost unanimously agreed that it is too powerful...but the move does no damage and on block im FORCED to guess your mixup! i mean how can something like that be OP.

This is my last post here since all my thoughts get deleted anyways
 
Malek and everyone:

This thread will go on for a couple of days more. Then I sit down and write down every suggested change and how many people suggested it, and who they were. Thats a lot of work, but I'll manage.

After this we hold a vote.
First we chose which moves need nerf/buff
For example
1) Cervy 3B nerf
a) No change
b) more unsafe
c) Less damage

So everybody makes a list and put their opinion.
You will be able to chose more than one option of course.
Afterwards, if at least 10% of the voters are against the change, the change will be discarded.

I only ask that everyone keeps a cool mind on the matter.
There is a lot of hate flowing around this thread, but seeing how many times this whould have derailed already I am certain I made the right decision to limiting answers to this thread.
However, it does NOT mean that your voice will not be heard if you are not on the list.

PLAYERS NOT ON THE LIST:
You CAN and SHOULD post your suggestions. Only thing you are NOT allowed to do is engage in discussion of changes other players proposed. Only people on the "elite" list, as you call it, may do so.
I am terribly sorry for this "inequality", but without it, this thread would go terribly wrong.

PLAYERS ON THE LIST:
Please stop acting like children. You can exercise your humor or engage in philosophical discussion in any thread you want. But keep it out of this thread. RESPECT other people opinion. If the best answer you can provide "just block" (Ramon) - its better not to say anything at all. If you want a discussion - DISCUSS. Agrue. Try to understand why this person thinks so. But please restrain from any self-indulgent commentary.
 
thank you Shinjin i was having trouble trying to see how i was trolling you instead of giving you an actual answer (although it be a short one) i mean nothing i said was for self indulgence.... but back to the topic at hand

i honestly cant comment on anyone but Pyrrha on this subject, But with that said, i find her to be very balanced and almost not at all OP! if 66A is her best move (which it is) i think at the most it should be -11 (from -10)

but you have to remember that changing things for a character SLIGHTLY can alter the character dynamic entirely.
 
Ramon said:
thank you Shinjin i was having trouble trying to see how i was trolling you instead of giving you an actual answer (although it be a short one) i mean nothing i said was for self indulgence.... but back to the topic at hand

i honestly cant comment on anyone but Pyrrha on this subject, But with that said, i find her to be very balanced and almost not at all OP! if 66A is her best move (which it is) i think at the most it should be -11 (from -10)

but you have to remember that changing things for a character SLIGHTLY can alter the character dynamic entirely.
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I need to agree with Ramon, i dont think P's 66A by any means needs a major Nerf. Its a good antistep with ok range, giving a nice mixup on hit. P has strong basics, shitty BEs, good CE, limited range. For me she is very well balanced too, Just her 22K seems a bit too much to me. It can be argued about making her 66A -11 or -12, so people get at least an AA. But more is too much imo.
 
her 22K is probably the ONLY thing that needs minor nerfing! such as making it maybe -12 on block or maybe -13
 
Ramon said:
her 22K is probably the ONLY thing that needs minor nerfing! such as making it maybe -12 on block or maybe -13
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I would prefer that 22K loses the TC frames. It's crazy that it beats AA, BB, 3B, throw, etc. i.e. all the basic mix-up tools. For most characters you actually need to guess that she's gonna do this move to punish her. If you didn't, she gets 85 damage.
 
but the start up is extremly slow and leaves you open for any kind of CH move that kills step ie: Pyrrha's 1k, 66A, 44A, so it does have it's draw backs

again it's a strong move but it does have its defects!
 
Ramon said:
but the start up is extremly slow and leaves you open for any kind of CH move that kills step ie: Pyrrha's 1k, 66A, 44A, so it does have it's draw backs

again it's a strong move but it does have its defects!
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Yes you're right, and if you anticipate it you can duck and punish her really hard.

But what I am saying is it kills a strategic element of the game imo. If I am playing Leixia, all I can do is use 3A+B every time I get advantage (which leads to very little damage), or block and wait every time I get advantage. The move beats almost all of her pokes, and I can't use AA or throws either, so I have no way to threaten you with serious damage even when I have the advantage. And any time I risk using a BB or throw and you do 22K, you get 85 damage, which is more than my 3B -> CE.

With Tira, similar things apply, except that my anti-steps are unsafe. So now, I can risk throwing out 1A, which you can stab punish, or risk GS 3A, which again is punishable AND can miniscule range. And 1A is also very slow meaning that you can easily beat it with a fast attack. So throughout the fight, you can mix up only with BB, 3B and 22K and the whole thing just becomes a guessing game.

I don't think Pyrrha's OP, I just mean that this move makes the game a bit shit. But for balance I'd just like Cervy Alpha Mitsu Viola (maybe Algol) nerfed and Leixia Raph buffed.
 
I Agree with Ramon. Well reasoned. I don't even find 22K OP at ALL. Not even close. Step back and the thing whiffs completely. for a launch punish. Nothing of her's beats backstep G when she is at disadvantage. There is no need to commit to a horizontal mid or anything at all.
 
ShenYuan said:
I Agree with Ramon. Well reasoned. I don't even find 22K OP at ALL. Not even close. Step back and the thing whiffs completely. for a launch punish. Nothing of her's beats backstep G when she is at disadvantage. There is no need to commit to a horizontal mid or anything at all.
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yeah that's my mentality for everything Pyrrha has! she's all about Reaction time and correct reads. besides it doesnt do that much guard damage and probably the most proper nerf is if 22K did no guard damage what-so-ever
 
For Leixia


Realistic changes:​
-Fix WR K's hitbox to actually reflect where her foot is. (It's too short)​
-Move the active GI frames on 22_88B+K to come earlier in the animation (make it possible to beat i12 Horizontals off of a -2 frame trap, but not i10-i11)​
-Make 1A i25 (3 frames faster)​
-Make 3K do 20 dmg (up from 14) and make it -6/+6 on block/hit, respectively.​
-Make A+B -16 on block, but [A+B] -10 on block​
-Give 6B, CHA (AT) one more frame of advantage on hit (+15) to help 6KK connect consistently on the whole cast.​

Less realistic changes:
Revert WR B BE to original status​
Make FC A+B i32, down from i37​
Make 44[A] -2 on block​
Increase damage on 6A+B to 40 (up from 34)​
Revert damage on FC3B to 30 (up from 26)​
Revert 22K to knockdown on hit, or else give it +4 on hit with no KND.​
​
D
Implement all the greens and 1-3 of the yellow changes.
 
docvizzo said:
Lol at some of your Cervantes nerfs, seriously. 22K is what? 25 Damage? Backstep and punish with whatever you want if its a problem...this thread was about fixing the really important stuff, not about nerfing i400 moves with 25 damage. Same for bA...what is the problem with bA?
.
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Odd you complain about Pyrrha 22K and saying thing it over powered, but if any mention of Cervantes 22K its uncalled for. Pyrrha 22K is a going to be used at disadvantage but there are options you can do to deal with it, you can use horizontal mids or lows or TC horizontal. There are things you can do to still keep momentum. You can also back dash but then you lose momentum cause of being passive. I don't think Pyrrha 22K need a nerf but if anything were to get one I think it should be just be -10. If her 66A become -11 and 3B loses the push back

Cervantes 22K is countering everything. With build in step, GI all horizontal and body attcks. This move has good range, and has good speed at -i24. This move tracks to both sides. It give +6 on hit and KND on counter hit and is -10 on block. And your saying it does not need a nerf. This move can be spammed with little thought. And the way according to you to beat this move is to back dash and whiff punish. So I must always give up my momentum every time in order to beat this? It not alway damage that can be the problem it the properties too. Imagine if Ivy's 214B was + on hit and was -10 on block. That be completely broken. Cervantes' 22K need to lose it GI body attacks or be punishable on block.


As for bK for being + on block is again too much, considering all the other tools he has. There are not may many characters that tools that give + on block, the one that comes to my mind is Pyrrha Omega's 4B but it is slow at i32, but Cervantes bK is i25.


@Kalas of course everything here is subjective. There will alway be bias because will all have different perspectives and different thought process, So don't try to belittle anyone indirectly here. We're not debating scientific information were talking about a video game. I could criticize your statement as you carefully tucked in Lexia in need of damage buff as a pressing issue after trying to sound objective. But I don't care, point is everyone one has their vision of what they want change, and if they want to post let them have it. It does no harm as Belial said this is going to be like a majority kinda of vote thing. It not like everything here is going to get implemented only some of the changes will be sent, and even then it up to Namco to decide what to do.
 
Eli123s said:
Odd you complain about Pyrrha 22K and saying thing it over powered, but if any mention of Cervantes 22K its uncalled for. Pyrrha 22K is a going to be used at disadvantage but there are options you can do to deal with it, you can use horizontal mids or lows or TC horizontal. There are things you can do to still keep momentum. You can also back dash but then you lose momentum cause of being passive. I don't think Pyrrha 22K need a nerf but if anything were to get one I think it should be just be -10. If her 66A become -11 and 3B loses the push back

Cervantes 22K is countering everything. With build in step, GI all horizontal and body attcks. This move has good range, and has good speed at -i24. This move tracks to both sides. It give +6 on hit and KND on counter hit and is -10 on block. And your saying it does not need a nerf. This move can be spammed with little thought. And the way according to you to beat this move is to back dash and whiff punish. So I must always give up my momentum every time in order to beat this? It not alway damage that can be the problem it the properties too. Imagine if Ivy's 214B was + on hit and was -10 on block. That be completely broken. Cervantes' 22K need to lose it GI body attacks or be punishable on block.


As for bK for being + on block is again too much, considering all the other tools he has. There are not may many characters that tools that give + on block, the one that comes to my mind is Pyrrha Omega's 4B but it is slow at i32, but Cervantes bK is i25.
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Phyrrha 22K is 85 DMG, has almost instant TC and is -7. Also combo in CE. You are complaining about a move with 25 DMG thats has been like this in basically any soul calibur and never has been a problem to my knowledge. Also it has no TC at all, so you can still grab him.

And yes some matchups require you to give up your momentum, its the same way how you deal with Pyrrha 22K Mitsu 4B, evading characters etc etc. I dont think thats something new. When i play against Ivy i also give up momentum when i anticipate 214B, 3B etc.

22K is nice, but no damage at all. I dont get how this can be a problem, but i others agree i dont care. I know franman uses it a lot along with bK, so thats probably where your impression comes from. But nerfing the few safe tools he has will ruin some matchups.

Concerning bK. What are Cervys options afterwards? I puts you in a normal mixup. Throws, unsafe Mid or unsafe Low. Its a normal mindgame situation, you can get the same damage for a correct read. Its not like Cervantes can pressure you with any safe mixup at all. Anything he has in this situation is risky to a point and by no means broken.

Its the same like after 4B BE, when people know how to deal the mixup again is quite risky. You can step into TC move to beat B+K and throw, you can GI, you can attack. But again for a correct read you get a lot of damage. Against the people i play a lot i find myself often just giving up the mixup, most of the time throwing because B+K is stepped so easily.

Cervantes is a hard Matchup if you dont play him a lot, but really broken only aB in certain matchups and 1AB damage. Imo.
 
I dont want any further 22K discussions here. It is noted (both Pyrrha AND Cervy) and you will be able to vote accordingly. Further posts about 22K nerfs will be deleted.

Majority of votes is needed, I feel. If I only allow top players to vote I'd be lynched by the morning :)
But what I can do is separate top players votes from everyone's votes. And when I mail to to Namco I will say Top Player Opinion (16 yes 4 no) and Casual players opinion (5 yes / 200124 no)
^_^
If you have suggestions how to handle that properly PM me.
 
Aziz said:
I honestly find this so offensive to be considered as a casual player just because I can't afford joining your tourneys and to be ignored because of it , though I know where this come from, I've seen a lot of false opinions here.
anyway, hope you consider my zwei's list
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I will answer here, since a lot of people may share this view.
Every system has its flaws. If a few good players opinion doesnt get enough attention b/c of this, its still better, than derailing this thread into madness.
Your opinion is NOT ignored. You must have missed what I've been repeating many times. Everyone has a say. Some people also can discuss in-game stuff here, what others cannot. Final vote is open to everyone. And everyone can suggest their changes.
You ZWEI changes will be on the list as well as anyones changes.
 
Natsu: FC A+B to have stun properties again, the move is just useless now.

AAB to have less hit stun after block (should be at least -12) Natsu has no good string transitions that are safe except for.......

At least give her one safe string transition. Taki's 33_99 ABBB was fairly safe.
 
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