Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate

UNDERX said:
From the perspective of most competitive players the core mechanics of Dead or Alive–the holds and excessive hit stuns–are broken. They make nearly every action performed by either player a total guessing game. This sort of system will probably never be viable as a tournament fighter, if only because it creates an inverted skill ceiling where as a player gets better their options within the game become more limited. That’s not the kind of thing a competitive player wants to work toward.


Really, so every counter I have managed to do in DOA has been a Lucky guess ?
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I have to say, if they want to make holds/counters atleast a little safe, they should make the button to block throws and kicks the same. In DOA4, Kasumi often uses a middle throw or a middle kick. They should make it where you can do 4F to block both kicks and punches, so that you won't have to use 6F2F for middle kicks. It definitely is guessing game stuff. Also, the AI in 4 typically counters every freaking move. Just my little complaint there.
 
Just because it's a guess doesn't mean you have to be lucky to get it right. There are other factors involved. The bottom line, though, is that you're always guessing. That is bad design for a competitive game.
 
page said:
Just because it's a guess doesn't mean you have to be lucky to get it right. There are other factors involved. The bottom line, though, is that you're always guessing. That is bad design for a competitive game.
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I'm sorry I disagree - you are not always guessing. Yes DOA is fast but there are plenty of moves you see coming. And than you "react" to them!
 
UNDERX said:
I'm sorry I disagree - you are not always guessing. Yes DOA is fast but there are plenty of moves you see coming. And than you "react" to them!
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It is a major reaction game more than a guessing game. Most combos start with a middle punch or middle kick. Things like that can help you when it comes to what hold you'll use.
 
Reacting to everything is humanly impossible. The game is built around guessing, even competitive players have acknowledged that.
 
i don't get why this is a huge deal. every fighting game has some amount of guessing in it. there's a slight difference in the risk/reward factor but it's not too different than getting GI'd in Soul Calibur or getting taken off your feet in Tekken. each game revolves around somewhat of a guessing game otherwise it isn't completely fair is it.

that's why counter stuns are in the game. if you "guess" at countering you can either get grabbed or hit again and stunned again. everyone knows that when you try to counter you can get stun hit a lot more times if you fail counter holds. in this game you get stunned trying to counter for four hits. there are some moves you can't counter from in this game. when that happens then you get counter burst. then you're open for anything. so there are rewards for this "guessing".
 
UNDERX said:
I'm sorry I disagree - you are not always guessing. Yes DOA is fast but there are plenty of moves you see coming. And than you "react" to them!
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Sure. If you memorize every single character's canned strings and attacks that work well to keep a stun string going.

Otherwise you're not really reacting to them. It's usually a case of anticipation. You're recognizing broad trends and playing the odds.

For example, if someone got you in a stun in DOA 4, the lowest % reversal was a mid kick since that got its own standalone direction. Best damage option was usually to go for a launcher. Since going for a launcher right away was predictable, most went for a mid kick figuring that a high reversal was the safer bet on the opponent's part since they'd prefer to avoid inescapable damage with a reversal that covered a higher % of incoming attacks anyway.

Least interesting RPS application I've encountered in a FG.
 
Marginal said:
Sure. If you memorize every single character's canned strings and attacks that work well to keep a stun string going.

Otherwise you're not really reacting to them. It's usually a case of anticipation. You're recognizing broad trends and playing the odds.

For example, if someone got you in a stun in DOA 4, the lowest % reversal was a mid kick since that got its own standalone direction. Best damage option was usually to go for a launcher. Since going for a launcher right away was predictable, most went for a mid kick figuring that a high reversal was the safer bet on the opponent's part since they'd prefer to avoid inescapable damage with a reversal that covered a higher % of incoming attacks anyway.

Least interesting RPS application I've encountered in a FG.
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I get all that, and yes there is a fair amount of "analyze -guessing" going on. But there are plenty of moves you see coming. You just have to react fast enough.
 
Look ok, I don't want to start a war here, honestly I don't, I just want someone to explain to me why so many players think something along the lines of:

-DOA is pure guessing
-Counter system is broken
-This kind of thing is no good for fighting games.

Can someone please explain to me why guessing a high/mid/low mix-up is any different to guessing if someone will step, or if someone will crouch, or if someone will do an A grab, or B grab, or DP, or spam jabs, or block, or do an Ultra.

Can they also explain to me why people like to press the same series of buttons over and over again after they land a hit on their opponent.

Can someone also explain to me why getting 50% from one good guess is good and competitive and creates the environment for a serious game, whereas having to make multiple good reads to get 50% is bad design.

Please. Seriously. Someone lay it down for me. Not starting a war. Want a genuine, well-explained answer.
 
In doa you have to guess constantly all the time. It's a system where, in most cases, the least safe option for a player is to attack, and nothing is guaranteed. The attacker doesn't get properly rewarded for putting their opponent in a bad situation, because they're always at risk of taking as much or even more damage than they could dish out. That's about it. It's not a complex issue.

You can say what you want about doa being doa and all that, but the fact is that doa has never been a competitive game and even competitive doa players want the systems to change.
 
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In doa you have to guess constantly all the time. It's a system where, in most cases, the least safe option for a player is to attack, and nothing is guaranteed. The attacker doesn't get properly rewarded for putting their opponent in a bad situation, because they're always at risk of taking as much or even more damage than they could dish out. That's about it. It's not a complex issue.

You can say what you want about doa being doa and all that, but the fact is that doa has never been a competitive game and even competitive doa players want the systems to change.
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i don't know if you are a serious DOA player. The best DOA player even said he was pleased with the changes. There are guaranteed combos in the game thanks to the new mechanic. I'm curious what would you call a competitive game?
 
page said:
In doa you have to guess constantly all the time. It's a system where, in most cases, the least safe option for a player is to attack, and nothing is guaranteed. The attacker doesn't get properly rewarded for putting their opponent in a bad situation, because they're always at risk of taking as much or even more damage than they could dish out. That's about it. It's not a complex issue.

You can say what you want about doa being doa and all that, but the fact is that doa has never been a competitive game and even competitive doa players want the systems to change.
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No, the least safe option is for a player to throw (high counter hit vulnerable) or hold (high counter throw vulnerable). To be honest all I ever hear is "oh well the top players think this and that". I asked for explanations and I'm still not hearing any. And the same goes for FreeStepDodge. There's no reasoning, it's just flaming. I just want some reasnoing! Some explanation! Is it so hard?
 
page said:
You just got one. You not liking it doesn't make it any less true.
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You didn't answer any of the questions I asked. But I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. It's easier just to say things like "it's a guessing game lulz" rather than actually try to make a coherent point. Anyone else?
 
You guess all the time because of counters. Guessing all the time is bad for competition. Therefore counters are broken if the game is to be played competitively. That's what I said and it addresses all of your "questions."

This is how Dead or Alive has worked in the past and the biggest reason for it having such a terrible competitive scene. Even the developers know it, which is why they're changing the way counters work. There's no real argument here so I'm not sure what you're after.
 
page said:
This is how Dead or Alive has worked in the past and the biggest reason for it having such a terrible competitive scene.
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whoa. hold the phone there. DOA4 was at plenty of world tournaments. that's how i knew the guy that won the DOA5 tourney at E3. he was always at the world tournaments. so DOA does have a good competitive scene.
 
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