Balance Patch Discussion

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Because there's still all the pushback, for the most part that would only help characters that have better range than Mitsu(Asta/Ivy/Nightmare/Sieg/Xiba). What good is an opponent that can't do anything for a third of a second if it takes you longer than that to both get within range and actually strike back? Pyrrha, Yoshi, Dampierre, Patroklos, Zwei, Tira, Viola, Maxi, Natsu, and Ezio are still going to have a hard time punishing it if at all unless Mitsu is nice enough to use it within a range where the pushback wouldn't place them too far away for any of their faster punishes. That would be more of an advantage only for certain characters, I think a nerf that would benefit the whole cast would be better since the move gives all characters a hard time regardless of their individual traits. If a move is bullshit against everyone, shouldn't it be made non-bullshit against everyone instead of just a handful of characters?

If it was high, it'd be more punishable by just about all characters. If you couldn't think of a TC move in time, you could use an FC move(or just simply crouch and use a WS move after it whiffs). Granted, it'd still have that great range and stepback but at least if it was a high it wouldn't be a universal counter for absolutely everything like it is now. Making it vulnerable to TC/FC moves would also make spamming it more of a bad idea since if he happened to guess wrong and the other player uses the right TC move he'll be punished for it. This still benefits some characters more than others, but it benefits the majority of the cast and what kind of nerf wouldn't benefit somemore than others? I think the move would still be very powerful as a high and Mitsu still has plenty more to work with, he'd just need to be a bit more clever about how he employed 4B if it was a high. Oh, and it'd still require some degree of anticipation to counter if it was a high: use the wrong attack at the wrong time and you'd still get stabbed in the face.
 
Wandrian said:
Snip.
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First, you aren't giving Pyrrha, Natsu, and Zwei enough credit. 236B, 66B, and A+B will punish that at -19.

Second, even if you don't get free damage, I don't think you appreciate the value of a stronger mix-up at -19.

Also, if you block that at tip range, it's your own fault or the Mitsu took a retarded risk.
 
Okay most of my comments were deleted because some moder told me i was "trolling" people and this is meant to be a "serious discussion" so if you let me be serious this is my REAL list:




NERFS:
  • Mitsurugi
  • Astaroth
  • Nightmare
  • Viola
  • (maybe) omega pyrrha's 236236B:4 (just) needs to be nerfed as well
BUFFS:
  • Raphael (he's been shit since the 1st patch)
  • Leixia (I still think Leixia needs a huge buff)
  • Z.W.E.I.
  • Aeon
and forgive me if I made you cry or something, this is supossed to be a funny game, just don't get so temperamental s:
 
WuHT said:
Ouch. Good assessment, in that a ~130 damage combo requiring an unbroken grab, a wall, specific impact angle, and 1 bar actually does the opposite of showing Raph as an unstoppable powerhouse.
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Love it when people stir up my post to say something that's not even there, like for example anyone calling Raphael to be an unstoppable powerhouse.

Heaton said:
There's a few problems with those combos you cherry picked:
  1. People have next to no reason NOT to break B+G when their back is to the wall against Raphael
  2. You need to be fairly close to the wall to get a consistent wall splat with B+G
  3. You must be PERFECTLY aligned for 3A to re-wall splat - if you're not, you don't even get a knock down
Basically, you just picked his highest damage combos that he gets using a wall and meter, which some characters can beat without using a wall, without using meter, or without using either of those.
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Nowhere near as much accuracy needed as you're hinting, though I'll admit, quite a fair amount is needed. Your most valid point is about what people should break when back to the wall against Raphael. I'll give you that, sure. And, if you want to start comparing your character to other characters, technically, I could do the same.


Save me the complaints about your character, she's fine.

Trust me when I say you DON'T want her doing that sort of damage with a grab, because you have much better options for a wall splat than a single grab that is one of Raphael's only methods of getting a wall splat and extremely telegraphed against someone who knows him.
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Wasn't complaining about her, was being a smartass. Yes, his wall options are quite limited , fair enough.


If you don't see what's wrong, then you should ask for elaborations and clarifications, instead of posting half-baked proof to the contrary that only shows your ignorance of the situation. There's no shame in admitting ignorance in terms of game and character design, as it's an extremely complicated field, but you do more harm than good by making those kinds of posts.
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To be completely honest, my analysis of Raphael's damage was based on around the low end, not the high end of his damage. I definitely know the high end isn't exactly wonderful, but I've been hit by good damage plenty of times by Raphael. My PROBLEM with what he said was only that his tools don't hurt enough so it gives Nightmare plenty of time to hit a high damage wall combo. Which is exactly how I've felt when trying to play against Nightmares. Many Leixia players, including myself, have had to play extremely proactive defense against them, or the amount of times we get guard broken is very high. I wasn't saying she should get buffed for that, or anything else, I'm done with my discussion on Leixia buffs/nerfs in this thread. I wasn't calling Raphael a powerhouse, either. If you didn't notice, while I was being a smartass to him, the post ended with accusations to Nightmare, not Raphael. No need to come at me sideways.

Both Leixia and Raphael could use damage buffs. Raphael could also use an extra tool or two, but I don't think PS is willing to patch animations. So that will have to do.
 
Belial said:
Okay, stupid stuff IMO:

aPat: JFT damage, 33B spam
Algol: 2xCE, 66B damage/blockstun
Astaroth: 66K revenge damage
Cervy: 1AB CH damage+tracking
Dampierre: 236K JF series damage/simlicity to do
Ezio: BB hitconfirmable BE followup
Hilde: 5xC2B in combos
Ivy: CE (too fast/or too much dmg)
Maxi: WS B+K too safe
Mitsurugi: 4B too stupid in every respect.
Nightmare : NSS : backdash -NSS- bA - RIDICULOUS evasion. Almost impossible to punish even if read.
Patrokolos: 1B and 66B too little blockstun.
Pyrrah: 66A too good on hit.
O.Pyrrah: DNS B too safe. DNS A: too much damage.
Raphael: too many random wiffs
Siegfried: too many random wiffs
Tira: 3A too good since possible to hitconfirm
Viola: 44A hitconfirmable. BE damage loops
Voldo: Retarded hitbox (NM 1A going through on BS etc)
Xiba: 3B~RMB - transition too fast.
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Tira 3A being hit confimable does'nt make it to good, I'ts honestly one of the few good tools she has. Tira needs to be left alone. The first nerf was enough and I agree right now she is solid but taking that away from her will without a doubt make her a pointless character. Staying in gloomy is hard enough due to the first patch and the MULTIPLE transition nerfs she suffered from making some combos not even work anymore because at one point J66B[BE] and J236K[BE]guarenteed gloomy. Jolly has been aweful since the patch and she is VERY unsafe in it because 22A is no longer safe and 2ab is no longer hit-confirmable and no longer launches on CH. Also her 66aa is not a reliable step catcher to due the fact the first and second part of the string is both -20 on block and very easy to punish. So my thought are if G3A[BE] gets nerfed, jolly deserves some serious buffs. Also her mid screen damage is lacking but not as bad as leixia....just sayin lol

When it comes to viola, maybe SOME people should not have asked for a buff she did'nt need in the first place =) I also agree Natsu's 66B and 66AB are a little to safe but I do think she should have the original priority on darts back. That being removed I think ruined the character for a lot of Natsu players. Patroklos need a meter building nerf, Post Gi 66B, 66B+K, 236K gains him all the meter he spent on the GI back. Another thought of mine is that I think zwei needs some ein cool down fixes and a better grab range. I hope you guys respect my opinions!

**Making some combos not work all the time.
 
lxhizy said:
Okay most of my comments were deleted because some moder told me i was "trolling" people and this is meant to be a "serious discussion" so if you let me be serious this is my REAL list:




NERFS:
  • Mitsurugi
  • Astaroth
  • Nightmare
  • Viola
  • (maybe) omega pyrrha's 236236B:4 (just) needs to be nerfed as well
BUFFS:

  • Raphael (he's been shit since the 1st patch)
  • Leixia (I still think Leixia needs a huge buff)
  • Z.W.E.I.
  • Aeon
and forgive me if I made you cry or something, this is supossed to be a funny game, just don't get so temperamental s:
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Explain the nerfs cause NM and Asta bein up therefor nerfs don't make sence to me. NM is soooooooo unsafe, what could he possibly have that would need to be nerfed? I guess Astas damage can be pretty high but hes so slow that I don't see a reason for a damage nerf
 
Personally I reckon Asta is fine only things maybe is 22B BE tracking and 66K BE revenge damage but other wise he is fine. Nerfing 22B BE damage would be harsh for his 63214 B+G grab set-ups using 22B BE for more damage.

The only thing of Nightmare's I would like to see changed is his grabs back to 55, 50 damage. I mean how the hell are they that weak they make my Sieg grabs look pro. Only nerf I can possibly see is GS B potential for damage with a wall is a bit high can allow for almost an inst-kill after a guard break.

Buff Sieg. Please. The other day I just guarded Pat's 66A BE did a 3B punish and it whiffed after just guarding! I was lucky my opponent was so wtf confused that my SCH B slammed through his head for the clutch kill lol.
 
RumbleRosesBOSS said:
*tidbits about Tira*
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GS 3AA could stand to be nerfed a little bit. Sure, it's short range and has some weird hitboxes but it's still pretty powerful, initiates her oki game(hello GS 44B!), hit confirmable, hits mid, rings out, wallsplats, and is decently fast. Then it's an easy 70 damage with the BE, even more with oki followups. That's pretty good.

It is certainly *NOT* one of the *FEW* good tools Tira has. 6 A+B, UD, GS 66B series, GS 44B, JS 66AA, both 4Ks, JS B+K, GS B+K, A+B, 236kA+B+K, JS 66B, JS 22*88B...And those are just some of her easier to use tools. There's also those like 4 B+K B that are so underestimated...Tira has a *LOT* of good tools and she's easily upper mid if not high tier between those tools and Gloomy's raw damage output.


The only Tira combos removed by 1.02 are non-wallsplat GS 3AA juggles and GS 66K/JS BT B+K B juggles against some characters. All her other staple combos are still laughably easy(hello GS 3B ~ GS 4A ~ GS 4K ~ GS 66bA+B+K!), though the ones involving persona shifts just require a bit of luck now. They're still powerful enough to make Algol blush when they happen and they're still very easy to perform.

Jolly is intended to be shit in SCV. Whether we agree with it, like it, or whatever isn't of significance because that's what they(Odashima/PS/Bamco) are doing with it. Adapt or die.

JS 66AA is an excellent move. Just because it's not retardedly good like Mitsu 4B and has some actual downsides doesn't mean it's not great.


The only sort of buff Tira actually needs is to have her CE whiffs fixed.
 
Wandrian said:
GS 3AA could stand to be nerfed a little bit. Sure, it's short range and has some weird hitboxes but it's still pretty powerful, initiates her oki game(hello GS 44B!), hit confirmable, hits mid, rings out, wallsplats, and is decently fast. Then it's an easy 70 damage with the BE, even more with oki followups. That's pretty good.

It is certainly *NOT* one of the *FEW* good tools Tira has. 6 A+B, UD, GS 66B series, GS 44B, JS 66AA, both 4Ks, JS B+K, GS B+K, A+B, 236kA+B+K, JS 66B, JS 22*88B...And those are just some of her easier to use tools. There's also those like 4 B+K B that are so underestimated...Tira has a *LOT* of good tools and she's easily upper mid if not high tier between those tools and Gloomy's raw damage output.


The only Tira combos removed by 1.02 are non-wallsplat GS 3AA juggles and GS 66K/JS BT B+K B juggles against some characters. All her other staple combos are still laughably easy(hello GS 3B ~ GS 4A ~ GS 4K ~ GS 66bA+B+K!), though the ones involving persona shifts just require a bit of luck now. They're still powerful enough to make Algol blush when they happen and they're still very easy to perform.

Jolly is intended to be shit in SCV. Whether we agree with it, like it, or whatever isn't of significance because that's what they(Odashima/PS/Bamco) are doing with it. Adapt or die.

JS 66AA is an excellent move. Just because it's not retardedly good like Mitsu 4B and has some actual downsides doesn't mean it's not great.


The only sort of buff Tira actually needs is to have her CE whiffs fixed.
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Every move you listed is heavily unsafe or stepable. GG!
 
RumbleRosesBOSS said:
Every move you listed is heavily unsafe or stepable. GG!
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So what you're saying is that you believe moves should have no risk and no downsides. Allow me to recommend you some different games, I don't feel that Soulcalibur is a good fit for you.

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But no, can we please not have trolling in a topic like this? It's shameful.
 
MntT77 said:
Wait, wait, wait... 6A+B is a useful move now? :/
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Tracks to both sides, works wonders if you're playing that oki game and using tech traps. They get up expecting something else, they're eating it to the face. They stay down and you can do JS 66B/GS 66B/GS 22*88B and the like. Yay.
 
RumbleRosesBOSS said:
Explain the nerfs cause NM and Asta bein up therefor nerfs don't make sence to me. NM is soooooooo unsafe, what could he possibly have that would need to be nerfed? I guess Astas damage can be pretty high but hes so slow that I don't see a reason for a damage nerf
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Nightmare's punisher moves are VERY effective, even if you read them many of them are nearly impossible to avoid.
Astaroth follow ups are broken, they do way too much damage. lol
whatever if they nerf mitsu i'm happy with the game.
 
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