Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
[notice]Thread cleansed. Don't troll Soul Arenas, period.[/notice]
Nightmare General Discussion/Q&A
- Thread starter Tiamat
- Start date
DeathInMyEyes
DIME
Just wanted you guys to know I updated the Nightmare Matchup Reference Guide (http://8wayrun.com/threads/nightmare-matchup-reference-guide.10049/) with anti-Natsu, Astaroth, and Algol. Check it out!
I also added a line to Patroklos and and Nightmare.
I'll be working on updating the entire guide over time, so feel free to make the proper matchup discussion threads if you want.
I also added a line to Patroklos and and Nightmare.
I'll be working on updating the entire guide over time, so feel free to make the proper matchup discussion threads if you want.
Zekki
[10] Knight
Ossum job DIME
DeathInMyEyes
DIME
Updated the matchup guide with some anti-Viola.
Zekki
[10] Knight
Dayum, the hits keep coming. Keev disappointed me today, but it ain't so bad since most of the "big names" got wrecked on this evo.
Thermidor
[10] Knight
Lets start talking about how to fight Tira she's going to start getting some attention now and the Pat Wave
DeathInMyEyes
DIME
Its not a hard matchup for Nightmare, I don't believe.
She can punish everything that doesn't push back with 4k and GS 3aBE, and she can hurt GS with JS 66aa. She also has that godlike i13 CE for punishment.
But other than being able to punish NM fairly strongly, NM has the pushback to deal with her. I don't think there's too much stuff to know, but I'll do some tests later on.
I also think its more about the player's Anti-Tira knowledge more than Tira's anti-NM tools. For instance, you should be able to block 236k and 236kBE on reaction, duck 3aa and 3aBE, now that JS 22b, GS 2a+b, 6a are only -3, and various other little things.
She can punish everything that doesn't push back with 4k and GS 3aBE, and she can hurt GS with JS 66aa. She also has that godlike i13 CE for punishment.
But other than being able to punish NM fairly strongly, NM has the pushback to deal with her. I don't think there's too much stuff to know, but I'll do some tests later on.
I also think its more about the player's Anti-Tira knowledge more than Tira's anti-NM tools. For instance, you should be able to block 236k and 236kBE on reaction, duck 3aa and 3aBE, now that JS 22b, GS 2a+b, 6a are only -3, and various other little things.
J
JustinAkatsuki
Guest
Dunnno if u guys knew this...nightmare can completely backstep viola's 44A BE=o regardless if it's delayed or not so you don't need to GI haha
microgamer
[10] Knight
I'm not sure where else this would go so I'm putting it here.
EVO was fun. I basically won against anyone who wasn't a killer. I lost to Oosaka, a Maxi player from Japan and Keev, who I'm guessing most people are familiar with if they post in this forum. I maybe could've won against Oosaka had I known the Maxi matchup better. Keev, not so much. I ended up playing Xiba against him because I don't like the mirror matchup. Either way, actually playing against Keev himself was a highlight from the weekend.
Somethings I learned:
- Keev's use of 1K and FC throws are quite integral. I was still in the mindset that NM is still weak to TC attacks. It's still true to an extent, but up close, 1K and FC throws still apply pressure that can't be countered simply by 2A-ing all day. Especially since NM's standing throw damage was nerfed, FC throws become more viable.
- NEVER EVER WHIFF AT RANGE AGAINST NIGHTMARE, ESPECIALLY KEEV. It's prolly because I'm still predominantly an online player and don't face killers. But it's funny, because it's only after I faced the NM range whiff punishing for myself do I realize how much it hurts.
EVO was fun. I basically won against anyone who wasn't a killer. I lost to Oosaka, a Maxi player from Japan and Keev, who I'm guessing most people are familiar with if they post in this forum. I maybe could've won against Oosaka had I known the Maxi matchup better. Keev, not so much. I ended up playing Xiba against him because I don't like the mirror matchup. Either way, actually playing against Keev himself was a highlight from the weekend.
- Keev's use of 1K and FC throws are quite integral. I was still in the mindset that NM is still weak to TC attacks. It's still true to an extent, but up close, 1K and FC throws still apply pressure that can't be countered simply by 2A-ing all day. Especially since NM's standing throw damage was nerfed, FC throws become more viable.
- NEVER EVER WHIFF AT RANGE AGAINST NIGHTMARE, ESPECIALLY KEEV. It's prolly because I'm still predominantly an online player and don't face killers. But it's funny, because it's only after I faced the NM range whiff punishing for myself do I realize how much it hurts.
Thermidor
[10] Knight
I'm not seeing enough Anti-Pat and Tira talk lets go people.
Tiamat
[11] Champion
that Tira play isn't exactly the easiest thing to copy.
Pat on the other hand...
Pat on the other hand...
Zekki
[10] Knight
Okay, you asked for anti-Pat talk, so here's the basics against him, since I play Patroklos as a secondary character.
First off, Patroklos' main game revolves around a few key elements:
6BBB_66B, 66B+K, 66A+B_236K_236bBE_CE: This is Patroklos' bread and butter combo/punisher, you need to unerstand how to deal with this or he will hit this combo on you all day. This is the Fear My Skills combo you all know so well. It is completely avoidable by step, and he can only land it if (A): You whiff at close to midrange, or (B): he manages to interrupt a stance or slower move. This means no Grim Stride/Night Side in very close range (if the Patroklos is in Neutral stance). Be very cautious with your use of Grim Stride against him, though there are a few exceptions I will underline later. The combo starters are 66B and 6BBB, which for the purposes of this post are the ones I will go over most in depth. Both moves are VERY linear, and completely vulnerable to step. However, both are safe on normal guard. A very important note about 6BBB though, is that the second B is a high attack. WR B_(B)_K are decent here, though I would not recommend their use unless your timing is flawless (training tiem?) with them. In my opinion, it is much easier and safer to simply use FC 3B_B+G_A+G_K when you duck the second hit for safety's sake. Keep in mind that Pat can delay between all three Bs in 6BBB, so be wary of the delays or he will catch you off guard and get the full combo. The point of this section is: Don't Get Combo'ed.
Next up we will talk about 1K, that damn low kick he does standing up:
On its own, this move can seem weak, but it is about as useful to Pat as our own 1K is for us. It hits grounded (sometimes), teching (always) and covers step a bit to Pat's right. This move fills the same role 1K does for us: Chip Damage and Constant Pressure. The whole point of this move is to encourage you to duck, though you MUST NOT get in the habit of ducking a lot against Pat, or you will be opened to his main combos. I find that a nice 7_8_9B can discourage its use, but don't get cocky with your jumpy chops, or you'll suffer for it. The good news is, that even if you get hit out of a jump move by Pat's 66B or 6BBB, he does not get a free BnB combo on you (air control is nice), though if they are expecting it or are quick on the draw they can juggle you with a CE or 3B ( so air control to his left to avoid this I believe).
Edit: Also, since Pat's have a habit of run-up 1K, 44K DROPKICK BITCH! If you see it coming. :D
More Notes:
For people unfamiliar with Patroklos, his fighting is similar to Pyrrha's and Opy's styles in essence, though not visually. He is better at rushdown than they are, and has typically stronger punishes (with exceptions), though his range is greatly diminished. ZONE THE SHIT OUT OF HIM. The following are notes on a few moves you should either be punishing, or watching for:
236, aka Justice Step: the movement range of Justice Step is much shorter than Pyrrha's 236, and he does not have a Double Justice Step. The Step tech crouches until he does a move out of it, so be wary of getting an agA or iagA ducked. 3AA_3A2A is good against Justice Step if he is using it to get in, though he can also use it point-blank to avoid your highs, so always remember against Pat that he is very good against highs with how many TC's he has. He can do a few moves out of Justice Step, which are:
236B: This is the move where he says "Forfeit!". It does good damage, and leaves him close to you after knockdown for good oki. HOWEVER, this is juicy as fuck on block, as it leaves him at a severe disadvantage if you block it. So block it! Also, very short range, and if the dude misjudges that it will hit you, or you lolbackstep it, you get to take him to 3(B) city. If he glows yellow and does it, it is the next move:
236bBE: This is the same thing as 236B, except with an added hit, and it is safe on block. It's a get-in-with-pressure kinda move. Don't get aggressive, or he is gonna knock you down.
236A_A,B: This is his JS step-killer. Looks like a lil spiral attack thing, unsafe on block, punch his shit if you block it. He can do 236A with the B at the end if he lands it for extra damage, though you should be blocking this. If he does it without the B, I am not sure of the exact frame data, but I *think* you can snag a free 4KK_4kBE for your troubles.
236K: And here, we have another reason why you should not be randomly twitch-ducking against Pat. It has shit range, but it has two things it excels at: Building Meter and Okizeme. If Pat successfully lands this, he gets an 8th of a bar of meter (one of the reasons why Pat gets a ridiculous amount of meter is this move). Also, it hits on the ground, making playing dead against Pat a non-option. Tech and block, bros.
Punish Notes:
Now, I am not as frame savvy as some of the titan players on here, but I know an unsafe move when I see one. Moves to watch for:
3B: When Pat does this, punch his shit (4KK_4kBE) on block.
236B: More shit-punching.
236AB: See above.
A+B: This move is safe on block, but if they charge it AT ALL and you don't hit 'em, step and slap up some bitches. Also, you can punch their shit if you are close at any time (it GI's A or B mids that are not Thrusts/Stabs). Also, it's a high, so those of you who can iWR, you can duck the stab of justice and iWR (B) his ass, etc. etc.
As a last note, a few observances about Patroklos: He is a very linear character, very vulnerable to step except at kissing range (for the most part), but his rushdown is very, VERY good. Don't let him rush ya down.
Oh, and before I forget, he one WR move you need to know of: WR KA. You need to remember there is a hit after the While Rising Knee and you cannot interrupt it if blocking the K.
This concludes my Basic level Patroklos Matchup guide. Feel free to add, etc.
First off, Patroklos' main game revolves around a few key elements:
6BBB_66B, 66B+K, 66A+B_236K_236bBE_CE: This is Patroklos' bread and butter combo/punisher, you need to unerstand how to deal with this or he will hit this combo on you all day. This is the Fear My Skills combo you all know so well. It is completely avoidable by step, and he can only land it if (A): You whiff at close to midrange, or (B): he manages to interrupt a stance or slower move. This means no Grim Stride/Night Side in very close range (if the Patroklos is in Neutral stance). Be very cautious with your use of Grim Stride against him, though there are a few exceptions I will underline later. The combo starters are 66B and 6BBB, which for the purposes of this post are the ones I will go over most in depth. Both moves are VERY linear, and completely vulnerable to step. However, both are safe on normal guard. A very important note about 6BBB though, is that the second B is a high attack. WR B_(B)_K are decent here, though I would not recommend their use unless your timing is flawless (training tiem?) with them. In my opinion, it is much easier and safer to simply use FC 3B_B+G_A+G_K when you duck the second hit for safety's sake. Keep in mind that Pat can delay between all three Bs in 6BBB, so be wary of the delays or he will catch you off guard and get the full combo. The point of this section is: Don't Get Combo'ed.
Next up we will talk about 1K, that damn low kick he does standing up:
On its own, this move can seem weak, but it is about as useful to Pat as our own 1K is for us. It hits grounded (sometimes), teching (always) and covers step a bit to Pat's right. This move fills the same role 1K does for us: Chip Damage and Constant Pressure. The whole point of this move is to encourage you to duck, though you MUST NOT get in the habit of ducking a lot against Pat, or you will be opened to his main combos. I find that a nice 7_8_9B can discourage its use, but don't get cocky with your jumpy chops, or you'll suffer for it. The good news is, that even if you get hit out of a jump move by Pat's 66B or 6BBB, he does not get a free BnB combo on you (air control is nice), though if they are expecting it or are quick on the draw they can juggle you with a CE or 3B ( so air control to his left to avoid this I believe).
Edit: Also, since Pat's have a habit of run-up 1K, 44K DROPKICK BITCH! If you see it coming. :D
More Notes:
For people unfamiliar with Patroklos, his fighting is similar to Pyrrha's and Opy's styles in essence, though not visually. He is better at rushdown than they are, and has typically stronger punishes (with exceptions), though his range is greatly diminished. ZONE THE SHIT OUT OF HIM. The following are notes on a few moves you should either be punishing, or watching for:
236, aka Justice Step: the movement range of Justice Step is much shorter than Pyrrha's 236, and he does not have a Double Justice Step. The Step tech crouches until he does a move out of it, so be wary of getting an agA or iagA ducked. 3AA_3A2A is good against Justice Step if he is using it to get in, though he can also use it point-blank to avoid your highs, so always remember against Pat that he is very good against highs with how many TC's he has. He can do a few moves out of Justice Step, which are:
236B: This is the move where he says "Forfeit!". It does good damage, and leaves him close to you after knockdown for good oki. HOWEVER, this is juicy as fuck on block, as it leaves him at a severe disadvantage if you block it. So block it! Also, very short range, and if the dude misjudges that it will hit you, or you lolbackstep it, you get to take him to 3(B) city. If he glows yellow and does it, it is the next move:
236bBE: This is the same thing as 236B, except with an added hit, and it is safe on block. It's a get-in-with-pressure kinda move. Don't get aggressive, or he is gonna knock you down.
236A_A,B: This is his JS step-killer. Looks like a lil spiral attack thing, unsafe on block, punch his shit if you block it. He can do 236A with the B at the end if he lands it for extra damage, though you should be blocking this. If he does it without the B, I am not sure of the exact frame data, but I *think* you can snag a free 4KK_4kBE for your troubles.
236K: And here, we have another reason why you should not be randomly twitch-ducking against Pat. It has shit range, but it has two things it excels at: Building Meter and Okizeme. If Pat successfully lands this, he gets an 8th of a bar of meter (one of the reasons why Pat gets a ridiculous amount of meter is this move). Also, it hits on the ground, making playing dead against Pat a non-option. Tech and block, bros.
Punish Notes:
Now, I am not as frame savvy as some of the titan players on here, but I know an unsafe move when I see one. Moves to watch for:
3B: When Pat does this, punch his shit (4KK_4kBE) on block.
236B: More shit-punching.
236AB: See above.
A+B: This move is safe on block, but if they charge it AT ALL and you don't hit 'em, step and slap up some bitches. Also, you can punch their shit if you are close at any time (it GI's A or B mids that are not Thrusts/Stabs). Also, it's a high, so those of you who can iWR, you can duck the stab of justice and iWR (B) his ass, etc. etc.
As a last note, a few observances about Patroklos: He is a very linear character, very vulnerable to step except at kissing range (for the most part), but his rushdown is very, VERY good. Don't let him rush ya down.
Oh, and before I forget, he one WR move you need to know of: WR KA. You need to remember there is a hit after the While Rising Knee and you cannot interrupt it if blocking the K.
This concludes my Basic level Patroklos Matchup guide. Feel free to add, etc.
DeathInMyEyes
DIME
Merged your posts, zekki. Try not to quadruple post
Zekki
[10] Knight
Sorry, I wasn't sure what the exact character limit per post was.
EDIT: O.O My glorious indents are gone! Lol
For some reason it won't let me edit the megapost, but I forgot to add that Pat is VERY vulnerable to backstep and Night Side (for backstep purposes), so make him whiff for some sweet punishes.
EDIT: O.O My glorious indents are gone! Lol
For some reason it won't let me edit the megapost, but I forgot to add that Pat is VERY vulnerable to backstep and Night Side (for backstep purposes), so make him whiff for some sweet punishes.
Thermidor
[10] Knight
I'm starting to get destroyed by every Tira im coming across too most of her moves can't be punished even by 6k D:<
Zekki
[10] Knight
Yeah, a lot of Tira's moves seem safe, seems a bit of duck-the-high training is in order.
Pernicious-Soul
[10] Knight
Kinda dead in here lately so let's talk about Nightmare CE. Lots of folks was really hating on it at first saying it's totally useless and so on. I've always felt it was useful but more so than to GI something I find just having it available really fucks people up having to worry that you can GI any move they do and take huge damage to boot. With Nighty excellent meter building it doesn't take much build it up either. Only time I use BE is in wall combos so most of my meter is saved for GI and CE so there's always plenty. I do however think it should be able to counter other CE's. Do you use it? Do you try and take advantage of the meta game it brings? Thoughts?
Engared
[10] Knight
It does too little damage for the risk involved. I cannot count how many times I have lost matches I should have won due to a bad read with the CE. At least with a missed GI, the opponent will not be able to punish it for max damage all the time but a missed CE normally means half your health. Unless you are OmegaDR of course (who is psychic).
Keev lost thousands of dollars due to bad reads with the CE as well lol.
Its not completely useless because its presence in the meta game means your opponent will be hesitant to finish you off but still its one of the worst CEs in the game (up there with Raph's). If it did like 100- 120 damage from the GI on the other hand, it would be worth the risk.
If the input was better as well, it would be a much stronger CE (half the times if you do it on reaction, GS comes out and you get owned).
Pernicious-Soul
[10] Knight
A bad read is just a bad read. It's not the CE fault lol. If almost any CE is blocked or stepped your gonna eat big damage. Not just with Nightmare. It's hard for me too hate a move that GI any move in the game except another CE. Sure it not perfect but your opponent knowing that 95% of their movelist can be counter for huge damage doesn't allow them play their game. They have too consider that.
Engared
[10] Knight
Yeah but most characters don't get punished for 50% of your health points on a bad read on CE. And to boot; it doesn't do more damage (unless you get the very random and impossible to plan for 160 damage hits) than other people's safer comboable CEs which use the same meter. IMO Nightmare's whole meter usage should be used for his brave edges which are all rather strong. 2B+K BE should be made a better anti -tech trap option but its still solid in its current state.
Nightmare really needs another viable low option or better throws to be strong in tournaments again. Though 1A is nice, he needs a slightly better 1K (positive on counter hit please?) or another low poke (11B from SC4 maybe?). A better input for aGA and 33B would also be very helpful.
Zerokage and I have been complaining about how unsafe Nightmare is now for the reward he produces. He is way too unsafe for the amount of damage he does.