1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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People said she was garbage. Tidus decided she wasn't THAT bad.

She's a solid mid, but nobody plays enough to bother realizing this.

Just like Rock isn't as useless as so many would like to believe...it's just they haven't utilized them accordingly.

They're no Mitsu or Sophi, but they're still decent.

Don't bother taking what these people are saying too seriously - opinions are simply that. Algol was dubbed S tier, Kilik is apparently straight asscrack...

Voldo wasn't even regarded so highly a couple months back.
 
KowtowRobinson said:
That's why this is an ongoing discussion. If the point you're trying to make is that people shouldn't take these tiers as set in stone, then I agree.
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Precisely.

By all means a well-informed and knowledgeable discussion is always progressive...

but occasionally there's the 'lol, Tira is ass cause she hurts herself'...

so smart.

It'd be more interesting to see some good/bad matchups discussion too since that isn't definitive either.
 
Hayate said:
Wow all this anti-maxi judgment!

I play him as a secondary actualy, i do quite well with him, and i feel i still need a lot of research on his stance possibility.

But i'am just a little tired seeing "that character suck" after 3month playing, i have to play 1 year with Yunsung at SC2, and wasn't able to use all of his potential, it's a long long way, really long compared to "Top Tier" character who "Seemed to be" better, hell, are you all lazy-bones ? They just need less practise to win, that's all!

I agree that the game isn't perfect, and the balance can't be perfect, there always be avantage and disavantage, YOU have to find the way to compensate it.

This Soulcalibur is really the most fair one, you can really win, just need practise, good application and knowledge.
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Yes and its for good reason and Hayate, Maxi is my MAIN. Over the course of these SC games, I put alot of work into Maxi myself, multiple years worth into this one character.

When I actually had faith Maxi was good, the boards were ALREADY filled with negativity. The more I played, I saw people were right.

Fact: Can Maxi win? OF COURSE HE CAN!
As I said before, Maxi's match ups are either dead even or at a disadvantage. But he can deal damage like any character. So of course you can win with him.

I believe you showed people at the World Tournament in SC2 that SC2 Yun could indeed win vs higher tiers. Maxi can win too, any character can Hayate. But Its more than the character and the characters tools that win, its the player and how they use those tools are what win. Im not done with Maxi by the least bit, but Its hard to talk strats when you post up and instead of discussion you get "WAAAAAHFest 08" cause some move got altered or changed or someone is sad Maxi isn't easy mode. But hey, if you would like to piece apart my post Hayate and maybe we could find a solid stance where Maxi belongs on the tier list, cause I don't believe he even reaches Mid tier on this list.
 
I didn't say that Maxi is not a Low Tier, or he is a MID, or TOP, I just said that you can't judge him like 3 month after the game has been realeased, and it's doesn't matter if he is qualified at low, mid, top ... whatever the important thing is that he "didn't suck" that much. And even if you were right, The gap beetween him and an other character in a match can't be so BIG! : it's not like you can't even deal 1pts damage, or force any mixup, or haven't any solution in 90% of the case, you think that you lose on the ratio risk/reward ? well then research, find, adapt and come back with better analys and playing style. Maxi has negative match-up, only if you play like all has decided to play Maxi, compensate this negative by your creativity, the gap is not so big i think, it's not only because the player, it's not because i played Yunsung at SC2, it was just research and application, commun quality to all people, it will just spend you more time (and even more if you don't go in the right way)

He is probably Low or Mid-, i won't debate to prove any thing, i just try to find a way to beay anybody versus anycharacter, and when i have trouble, i try other thing, research on practise mode, double check, and finally manage to win, not every time, but enough to not say that "he suck!!"
 
Hayate said:
Maxi has negative match-up, only if you play like all has decided to play Maxi, compensate this negative by your creativity,
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first off, my bad. I thought the tier list is what we were talking about. Heh.

The Yunsung thing was just me saying, that in the right hands (namely the dedicated) characters can win those negative match ups.


What I quoted here, I think applies to just about any bad match up..

I feel Maxi's CF Game may need a revisit...Im messing with it this morning, and Im kinda "O_O wow" at the moment. Maybe I was a lil quick to judge this part of Maxi.
 
We can all agree that this is a fairly well balanced game correct? even if someone is in low tier and needed to be moved to mid, all characters are divided by a thin line. its not like a cassie player will automatically win against lets say, a mina player. it just so happens that the mina player will need to apply herself more than the cassie will since the cassie player has better tools.
 
That list (first post) is getting better and better every day.

The only thing that stands out as glaringly "wrong" in my eyes is Lizardman at Mid tier. I feel he's the very definition of an Upper Mid character, really. He's damaging, pretty safe, quite simple to use, and has one of the only still viable CF games after the patch. (I pretty much never have a match where CF isn't a threat by the second round with him.)

Have a flashchat discussion about Lizzy with people. I don't think it'll be that hard to convince you he should go up a tier. Though if you'd like me to go more in depth here then I will.
 
I know I said that he has some bad matchups, but Astaroth's still mid tier, IMHO. Played correctly, he forces the player to be very careful in how they play, since a single wrong move can result in a ringout or a nasty combo. Also, his throws are still pretty fucking good, and we all know how good throws are in this game. I'll have to agree with Rico about Lizzy as well. A lot of people underestimate him because of scrubs abusing the crawl stance.
 
^No. Quit talking like Nightmare = SF3 Gill. I have done well against Nightmare consistently. It's just another character you have to figure out what works and what doesn't on.

I do have to agree with whoever said there's a thin line between tiers. I mean, obviously there are better characters, but even still, the majority of characters have winning potential if used correctly.

I still have yet to see anyone do anything worthwhile with Rock or Zasalamel. Which is kind of why I'm insulted to see other characters on the same tier as them. I would make my own special "Suck tier" dedicated to them.
 
@MissingPerson: I think Minerva was joking... Anyway, I kind of get the thin line argument, but try to play Mina against an effective Sophitia, and see how it goes.
 
Rekano said:
first off, my bad. I thought the tier list is what we were talking about. Heh.
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This part. Hayate I understand what you're trying to say, and you're correct. But that has no bearing on the actual tier list. Lower tier characters can win with more effort, but they're still low tier.
 
As was said, the game is balanced better than any of us realistically thought possible (based on previous Namco records...).

In general, I feel that pretty much every character in the most accurate tier list we could ever come up with could be argued for a tier lower or higher than where they're placed. What I mean is that since so many characters have legitimate tools to win, practically moreso than ever, it's hard to make definitive lines dividing the cast.

Experience/lack of experience with characters in this game has an even bigger impact on their placement than usual.
 
Hmmm it seems the community is having a difficult time agreeing on plenty of things about this preliminary tier list, and I think the best thing to do is for a few of the top players get together and start determining rough matchup numbers to use as part of a character rank project. Using those numbers it will be easier to tell which character is where based on hard matchup data.

Characters with greater amounts of advantageous matchups are higher than characters with a smaller pool of winning matchups. It's really all about the matchups as opposed to individual appraisal of tools people think are good/not good.

Given that this game has it's own group of dedicated players driving the scene currently, Instead of say a game like SFIV that had an arcade release in Japan before anywhere else (where the Japanese were able to dissect the game and provide data that the Americans are now able to verify through matchup experience), I think it's best for the better players to really try and figure out rough matchup data and use that to provide detailed information on each character and which matchups they win. Something like that can proove really advantageous the next time players on the board have understandable differences when it comes to where certain characters are and exactly why.

So how about it Jaxel? Can we get character ranking project in the works?
 
I main Cass, Setsuka, and Zas.

I think Cass is in between top and upper-mid.

If you can do all her inputs flawlessly I think Setsuka is upper-mid.

I'm also convinced that Zas is lower than dirt, and I shudder when I hear balance because he really just can't hold his own to others much higher in the tier ladder IMO.

I didn't read this thread so don't attack me if stuff was discussed already.
 
IMO:

Top: Sophie, Cass, Voldo, Setsuka (properly played), Kilik
Upper Mid: Mitsu, Amy, Yoshi, Hilde, Taki, Sieg
Mid: Ivy, Cervy, Lizzy, Asta
Bottom Mid: Raph, Tira, Nightmare, Maxi, Yun, Apprentice, Talim
Low: Zas, Mina
Trailer Trash: Yoda, Rock, Vader
 
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