1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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astaroth JF grabs are stupid good and they track both sides unlike his SC3 command grabs. almost all lows are neg on hit now and many put the character into a crouch, which allows asta to get mixups all over the place on most characters. 66K is essentially safe on block and insanely scrubby still.
 
^^^

Truuuuuuth

On paper Asta doesn't seem that solid, but in actual practice he is still fucking good (think DR steve for anyone that plays Tekken)
 
quietmimetyper said:
Where are you getting this numbers from?
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Pardon me for oversimplifying, from risk reward average of individual moves based on their properties. Which in the end is intended to measure how good a character's move set is. The stats still don't consider everything, I'm still working on getting as much in as possible. Even then, how I treat the data is another headache. It's not a simple math problem mind you.

I'm treating the characters more like cars, ignoring the driver and concentrating on what makes a car a good car. A van can't out race a sports car. The comparison is more palatable and objective, rather than going into theories.

Of course, this is assuming that the players skill are equal. And how much emphasis you put on a particular play style, which is why RO, GI, CF stats are separated from Attack and listed individually from the final score.

I'm tired of the endless arguments and ego one-up-manships here, I want hard numbers. And... if the results of the calculations closely mirrors expert opinion, then at least I know I'm doing something right.

As for me, I'm happy I can use the score sheets as a hint to good moves, and possible un thought of uses. Mind you, the more variables are identified, and properly included in the formulas, the more accurate the scoring is.

...and btw, theory fighting is an entirely different matter, and in my opinion, a complete waste of time.

Cheers
 
Tiamat said:
astaroth JF grabs are stupid good and they track both sides unlike his SC3 command grabs. almost all lows are neg on hit now and many put the character into a crouch, which allows asta to get mixups all over the place on most characters. 66K is essentially safe on block and insanely scrubby still.
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Yep, JF throws are cheap as hell! LOL!

If Astaroth had a little bit better blockstun and gay bullrush from SC3 he would be top tier for sure.

The JF throws and his damage output are ridiculous, his RO prowess is still good and his wakeup game is better than ever in this game.

Top 10 character for sure.
 
A ton of ST stuff is played on paper with matchups and shit. They used to get into the math of those rankings hardbody. Doesn't really work as well with SC.

OH AND KILIK IS TOP TIER #1 BAN BAN BAN! Q.Q
 
letblackdragon,

Your list is a decent idea but there's one MAJOR problem with it: those numbers are YOUR OPINION. Basically, this makes your list no different than anyone elses opinion-based tier list.

If you want your method of ranking to be taken seriously, you need to create your own thread for that SPECIFIC ranking method, start off with a rough framework for the whole cast, describe how you obtain the numbers that you do (provide starting points for number comparison) and most importantly, ASK THE COMMUNITY TO DISCUSS AND SUGGEST CHANGES TO THE NUMBERS (which you must update as changes are made).

Without all those things (and I honestly don't mean to be rude), all the work you're putting into that method is meaningless and will fall on deaf ears.
 
A more realistic approach is actually analyzing a character and making a stat list of his attributes.

Note this is merely an example not a reflection of any real data...I am just estimating.
Example.
ASTAROTH:
Range: 90%
Damage: 95%
Throws: 90%
Punishment: 50%
Speed: 20%
Safety: 25%
Pressure: 78%
Ringout: 90%
Critical Finish: 80%

Match-up Review
Good.
Yunseong, Seong Mina, Apprentice, Zass, Maxi, Talim
Fair
Asta, Nightmare, Kilik, Siegfried, Tira, Yoshie, Mitsu
Bad
Sestuka, Sophie, Amy, Cass, Voldo, Hilde, Taki, Cervy, Lizardman, Algol, Rapheal

Something along these lines. Basically if you use something like this you can get a good list no problem, but it takes work, and your stats have to be compared to the entire cast.
 
Rico said:
letblackdragon,

Your list is a decent idea but there's one MAJOR problem with it: those numbers are YOUR OPINION. Basically, this makes your list no different than anyone elses opinion-based tier list.

If you want your method of ranking to be taken seriously, you need to create your own thread for that SPECIFIC ranking method, start off with a rough framework for the whole cast, describe how you obtain the numbers that you do (provide starting points for number comparison) and most importantly, ASK THE COMMUNITY TO DISCUSS AND SUGGEST CHANGES TO THE NUMBERS (which you must update as changes are made).

Without all those things (and I honestly don't mean to be rude), all the work you're putting into that method is meaningless and will fall on deaf ears.
Click to expand...

:D
At least I got a serious response from you! *success*

Anyways, what you said is all fine and is what I was intending to do once I feel the calculations are presentable. The whole attitude of the community was sort of negative and non-serious, and that has discouraged me from presenting the numbers behind.

And you are absolutely, the community has to play a big part in this. Let me explain. The whole idea of scoring depends on 3 things:
1- Identifying the variables that affect gameplay (speed, damage, step, etc)
2- Collecting the data need (like FD). I've done some work on, but it has to be reviewed and correct by the community. An agreeable standard should be reached here by all, such as finding a way to measure range.
3- The important, formulating the calculation method to turn these data variables into meaningful information.

Starting a thread was in the line, I just needed to gauge the community. I'll compile my methods for your critic.

Thanks for the serious comment. It's very constructive.
 
Eloquentrave said:
Lol.

The bosses raped pretty hard there too, Tiamat. :P
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Let's not start comparing Algol to Akuma, please. Akuma had tools that were so dominant in that game system, that an opponent had no options. People have options against Algol, it's just annoying.

Akuma was unbeatable by some of the cast, Algol isn't. Nobody in ST could guard impact air hadou.
 
apparently on top of the brokesauce air hadou, akuma couldn't be dizzied. An equivalent in SC4 might be a char's soul gauge being twice as hard to crush as everyone else's.
 
the reason why Maxi isn't all that great is simple. Simular to SC2, Maxi is defeated for the most part by the block button. The only core difference is with the SG your oppenent can't block everything, and in many cases they simply don't have to, as Maxi has little reason to make you block low and is VERY punishable on block anyways. Not to mention there are characters better at CFing than Maxi.

Maxi has a shitload of NCs and NCCs, these are what you use to mount your stance transitions and your offense. But the problem is they must hit, otherwise you're alot of the time set up for punishment. Maxi is going to be doing alot of poking and hit checking this game if he wants to win. PSL3 and WL on paper look so great for retaliation answers, one GI's As the other Bs. WL is pretty useless on anyone vs anyone with some patience and well, if the GI window was a lost cause the oppenent gets a free CH on you. PSL3 is a bit more useful as most of the faster characters are more likely to shoot out an A after blocking something. But this comes down to have you trained your oppenent with the NCs and mix ups? His sidewinders (8_2A+K/anystance 8_2)actually do their job when you use them properly(vs linear moves like Bs and Ks that aren't circular) the right side one I have evaded alot of stuff with.

Maxi fails the most vs characters with range and/or characters with solid punishment tools. and fuck does he ever. Kilik(Asura makes any 2A retailiation you planned, look fucking retarded) and Sigfried are Maxi's worst nightmare and thats not even mentioning Mina, Algol, and others. Its getting in your ideal range and staying there, which any character with a ranged tool will smack you from across the yard and with others, they can for the most part wait for Maxi to either stop or stance shift and punish acoordingly. Maxi does have solid match ups but none where he clearly dominates and he is going to have to, just like SC2. Work his ass off for his wins, even in matches he's even with. And most of it, is Maxi on block simply sucks.

If you wanna place Maxi on a tier list, he isn't bottom, but damn. Is he ever close.
 
Seong Mi-na does not deserve to be in the same tier as Rock or Zasalamel. And IMO, there is no way she ranks lower than Yun-seong. I see more winners with Mi-na than Yun.
 
Wow all this anti-maxi judgment!

I play him as a secondary actualy, i do quite well with him, and i feel i still need a lot of research on his stance possibility.

But i'am just a little tired seeing "that character suck" after 3month playing, i have to play 1 year with Yunsung at SC2, and wasn't able to use all of his potential, it's a long long way, really long compared to "Top Tier" character who "Seemed to be" better, hell, are you all lazy-bones ? They just need less practise to win, that's all!

I agree that the game isn't perfect, and the balance can't be perfect, there always be avantage and disavantage, YOU have to find the way to compensate it.

This Soulcalibur is really the most fair one, you can really win, just need practise, good application and knowledge.
 
I do agree with Amy being in Top Mid.

lack of damage and range sometimes kills me... she has the speed to deal with people, but she still has to work for her damage (read- multiple knockdowns and wakeup game guessing).

and I hate when my throws whiff. >_<
 
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