Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

[Delloso]

I was thinking of opening a new thread containing each characters' best anti prep options and how the Raph player can counter them. what do you guys think? It would go something like that:


NOTES: prep entry move used was 3B. Every time the terms "on hit" and "on block" appear they refer to Raph's prep entry move, 3B in this case

PATROKLOS​

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Best anti prep moves:​

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236AB: A fast TC, does 50 damage, good answer for prep at close range​

66B: Long ranged, excellent against prep 4 and SE, huge damage because of its high comboability​

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counters for 236AB:​

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- On block, prep 4 makes it whiff at all ranges, allowing you to punish with prep BB or SEA. On hit, Pat's move will hit Raph out of prep 4 at close range​

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- On block, prep K BE hits Pat at the same time 236A hits Raph, stopping the second hit of both moves from coming out. On hit, Prep K BE beats 236AB.​

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- SE outside of close range makes 236AB whiff. Anything you do from there outside of SEA will whiff and cause you to get hit by the second move of 236AB.​

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- Alternativelly, you can do 3B without entering prep, backdash and punish 236AB. ​

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counters for 66B:​

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- It doesn't TC and It isn't fast enough to escape prep BB and prep AB, on hit and on block.​

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- Prep K BE also beats it, on hit and on block.​

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- If Pat antecipates your prep 4 and uses 66B, you're helpless. If he reacts to it, you can do prep BB CH BE after prep 4 for nice damage. If you parry him, you can punish with prep K BE.​

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- SEA beats it on hit, and can only be punished on block if Pat uses 66B on prediction (can't be done on reaction). Every other SE move can be punished on reaction on all ranges, on hit and on block.​

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- Alternatively, you can do 3B without entering prep, then sidestep and punish with 33K BE. Or you can use the B+K aGI.​

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CONCLUSION: Prep is very dangerous on this matchup, risk reward isn't on Raph's favor. SEA is the safest way to get out of prep, as long as you don't overuse it. If your use of SEA makes Pat hesitant when it comes to punishing SE, you can start mixing it up with the other SE moves. Avoid prep 4 at all costs if your Pat opponent is 66B happy. Prep K BE is a good idea if you know Pat is gonna react immediately to your prep entry. Most of your damage you'll get from faking prep and whiff punishing​

 

[Delloso]

no suggestions? I'd like to know if it's fine, if I should add anything, or if you think it's worthless. I'm currently gathering data for other characters and plan to do it for the entire roster

 

[Zanaken]

I'll help as soon as you change that signature!

 

[Zanaken]

Well, for me, Prep is a dark horse.

I WILL use it, I WILL abuse it, but it will be based on mind-games and mix-ups.

As an example, and keep in mind I very rarely fake Prep entry, let's say I land a 66B. At this point I will wait for about 20 frames and just judge the situation.

Did they just land mid-screen and will try and rush in as soon as they can? I will Prep A+B. Lot's of mix-ups follow. I can name more than a few.

Are they semi-near a wall and are begging for some wall-game? I will let Prep carry me a few feet and then SE K. A mix-up in and of itself. Did I wait too long in SE? Am I trying to trick them into eating a SE B instead? Will I just stand up and grab? WHO KNOWS, BITCH?!

Are they relatively near a wall or ring-out? I will Tech Trap Prep K BE. Prep K has it's own uses, but I don't want to make this convoluted. On this note, I have no idea why Prep K BE after 66B even counts as a tech trap, it's just so damn reliable.

What if 66B is blocked? Well, I failed. It's as simple as that. I do not throw moves out with the intention that they get blocked, ever (I have a very rapid attack rate non-the-less.) I might do a Prep BB BE against someone who clearly loves to JG, and sucks at it, just to get that "You only won cos' I tried to JG" goodness.

If it IS blocked though, it's Prep 4 time. I wait the same 1/3 of a second and try and see a slow vertical, if I don't I just go for a normal speed 4. After that, SE or Prep A+B will be my main anti-punishment tools.

This is a sample of my game-play. If you want some more ideas on how I handle different Prep entries, and my uses for them, I can divulge.

 

[Zanaken]

Just want to add. If I see one more video of just throwing 66B (non-prep,) and trying to confirm into 66B+K (an under-rated move with it's own uses,) I will just flip...

 

[WuHT]

.snip.

on 66(B), your experience is the mixups on hit stemming from prepKBE to attempt to catch techers + getting in close with SE B/K mixups is better than taking the 30 damage from prepA+B most of the time ?

Consistently going into prep on block would have been awesome if prepK was safe (or at least prepK BE was hit confirmable) because that move is just too fast for people to attempt to interrupt on reaction (CH combo into CE is decent meter efficiency). SE attacks are too slow and are vulnerable to the "wait and react" defense because prepBB obviously doesn't work the guard meter (and it shouldn't).

 

[Zanaken]

Sure I do, man.

Mid-field 66B SE K. Maybe you push them back to a wall after with a 66K 236B, they block it or get hit or whatever, just pulling moves outa' my ass here.

Then you land another 66B, then wait just a liiiiiiiittle to long, just enough to stress their reactions, and then SE -B-.... Near a WALL. Boom, bitch, boom. SE mix-ups off 66B are worth 30 damage, as long as you have a master plan somewhere.

Heck, they guard the B? Then they are great players, and read you like a champ. Their reward? Negative frames with Raph staring them down at a wall.

There's a positive plethora of moves that Raphael has to achieve the same end. 44K is a good example. Instead of using BT 2B as a follow-up, use 2K. A slight gap after a couple of those will mean the opponent will try and guard the low. Well... Your BT B+K, 444A+B (don't ask,) or 66236B (again, don't ask,) will show em' who's the daddy.

(Hint: It's Raphael.)

 

[Delloso]

Well, for me, Prep is a dark horse.

I WILL use it, I WILL abuse it, but it will be based on mind-games and mix-ups.

As an example, and keep in mind I very rarely fake Prep entry, let's say I land a 66B. At this point I will wait for about 20 frames and just judge the situation.

Did they just land mid-screen and will try and rush in as soon as they can? I will Prep A+B. Lot's of mix-ups follow. I can name more than a few.

Are they semi-near a wall and are begging for some wall-game? I will let Prep carry me a few feet and then SE K. A mix-up in and of itself. Did I wait too long in SE? Am I trying to trick them into eating a SE B instead? Will I just stand up and grab? WHO KNOWS, BITCH?!

Are they relatively near a wall or ring-out? I will Tech Trap Prep K BE. Prep K has it's own uses, but I don't want to make this convoluted. On this note, I have no idea why Prep K BE after 66B even counts as a tech trap, it's just so damn reliable.

What if 66B is blocked? Well, I failed. It's as simple as that. I do not throw moves out with the intention that they get blocked, ever (I have a very rapid attack rate non-the-less.) I might do a Prep BB BE against someone who clearly loves to JG, and sucks at it, just to get that "You only won cos' I tried to JG" goodness.

If it IS blocked though, it's Prep 4 time. I wait the same 1/3 of a second and try and see a slow vertical, if I don't I just go for a normal speed 4. After that, SE or Prep A+B will be my main anti-punishment tools.

This is a sample of my game-play. If you want some more ideas on how I handle different Prep entries, and my uses for them, I can divulge.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how risk reward is in Raph's favor on any of these situations. Take prep A+B for example. It can be stepped on reaction and punished hard, especially by the likes of astaroth and nightmare. its' evasion properties aren't even impressive, and the 40 damage you get if you manage to connect it doesn't justify the risk. To throw out prep A+B confortably the opponent has to be very readable.

Similarly, doing nothing in prep and letting it carry you only to apply SE mixups leaves you vulnerable to just about anything your opponent throws out. The only situations I can see it would work is if opponent just stands there blocking or use a high. Again, the rewards are not worth the risk of eating a half life combo or worse.

Prep 4 will hurt you more than help on certain matchups, even more so if you're predictable with it. See patroklos. The parry window is very small, odds are you'll be hit often even by verticals. Especially if you entered prep on block. Not saying prep 4 is useless, i like it a lot, but it's only effective against good opponents if it's used somewhat rarely or at a safe range.

 

[Zanaken]

Your post confuses me.

66B Prep A+B is combo. No risk. Heck I still iPrep A+B all day, it's almost predictable for me to use one after a Prep K BE mid-screen.

Second, I don't Prep 4 a lot, I use it as an occasional out. That's it. I don't fail much with my plans, if I do, they either got very lucky, or out-played my ass. Either is fine, I want experience vs both at the end of the day.

Last, despite it being your second point, I LOVE people with generic answers to Prep. I ADORE them. "If you do this move, I will do this move." is a free win. By anyone's standard. They like to use a jab to stop Prep? I'll land a unusual entry just outside their hurt-box. I'll go for a move they don't know the properties to (Prep A+B and it's evasion jumps to mind,) or I'll just plain old (rarely,) fake Prep. If all 3 fail, I got my ass handed to me. Why? Because Raph has other, flashy, awesome moves.

If I land a B+K 6BB Prep entry in a very tight exchange, and they react to it in time, I took a well measured risk (assuming that my opponent is human,) and suffered a loss. The trick is predictability, not just frames and counters.

 

[Real_Bojack]

Post after post of near insanity

You prolly don't play very good players. Do we need to get into this again?

I guess we do,

Heck, they guard the B? Then they are great players, and read you like a champ. Their reward? Negative frames with Raph staring them down at a wall.

To re-iterate, you don't have experience with exceptionally strong comp. A good player who reads an SE B will Tech or step it rather than simply block it OR lay on the ground and stand up for Raph's funeral. Which means they don't wind up with negative frames and Raph staring them down (as if that's particularly scary for top players), THEY wind up 50% life up on Raph with Raph on the floor thrown in for good measure usually. If they block an SE B it means they either panicked and got lucky or guess right on blocking high rather than low rather than properly reading you. Proper reads don't mean simply blocking in most cases.

If you have an SE B blocked technically it means you got lucky because they didn't fuck you for doing it. Enjoy your +3 or whatever and try not to be too obvious with the follow up to get JGed or GIed or whatever.

 

[Zanaken]

Ok.

I suck.
Everyone I fight sucks.
My character choice sucks.
Mind-games suck.
All my opponents are pro robots.
I lose to 2 combos every game I play.

To think I had enough tools. To think I had enough there to enjoy the game... Success is beyond me. My posts are rambling, unhelpful and near insanity.

I'll keep what I have to myself. 33B, 3A, 2A and empty 66B are the only 4 moves you should use. Everything else is an auto-loss.

Oh, and keep spacing till they get tired.

Happy?

 

[Real_Bojack]

Self pity stuff

You can't self pity your way outta this one. You remind me of a younger me when I thought Raph was upper tier because he could in theory AE his way outta just about everything, IIRC I even tried to like convince Mick and Aris this back SC2 days over AIM back when that was a thing. I heartily approve of your chutzpah in strategy and planning, I could learn a thing or two from throwing out a risky move every now and again so in a way you've taught me too.

I just know that you as a player can do better by thinking about things from a different perspective on top of your own to realize how severe the risks some of the strats your posting actually are and to realize that basing so much strategy off of guess work and reads and the opp behaving in a favorable way is going to get you into trouble. That's all.

So basically, calm down. I'm not attacking you.

 

[WuHT]

Referring to his post as "insane" may have been taken as an insult by Zanaken.

Obviously i'm skeptical because my experience against stronger players is that they don't necessarily get pressured as easily as Zanaken makes it sound (they'll have the strength of nerve to sit and react to prep) so until I see a few gameplay videos from Zanaken I'm just going to keep his comments in mind under the "high risk, high reward" column that seemed to give him results.

 

[Real_Bojack]

I said near insane. There's actually decent logic and thought in his ideas. He just needs to take them one step further.

 

[Zanaken]

You can't self pity your way outta this one.

Please never accuse me of something so low and disgusting. A man never pities himself, a man never regrets his actions (or lessons learned,) and a man never goes against his word.

Either way, I was just pointing out how you sound to me. I am not going against my point, that safe pokes and zoning, whilst hoping for some scrap feed combo every now and again, is a waste of time.

I make my own match. If I'm not PLAYING then it's not an action orientated game anymore.

I play a lot of poker, when I see people throwing in minimum blinds and hoping for the best, and I just laugh. They look at their cards, calculate their risks - and then fold.

They don't try and think for a second. Stuart here seems to always fold his bad hands on the flop, despite raises. Bob seems to be getting unusually aggressive. This hand is weak, but Lisa seems to fold at the slightest scare. Is that sweat on Gary's forehead? He never loses his cool, does he have that flush?

It's not just about the cards you hold, or what's on the table.

It's about what your opponent THINKS you hold. A pair can beat a flush. Rapha-hellyeah can beat any top tier character. The thing is though, I think you will agree with that. It's just you can't conceive the notion of trying and improving game-play. You just want 3A to do more damage so you can poke harder. (A laughable assertion on my part - don't try and argue against it. It doesn't mean anything.)

I can play a very safe game, and cry about how he's not very good at it. I don't. I try and think about what moves he has, and why the creators would put it in the game. Clearly you think they can create strong characters, and yet weak ones with "Lot's of useless moves," at the same time.

There is no low-tier or high-tier. There's easy mode and hard mode. I play hard mode.

Referring to his post as "insane" may have been taken as an insult by Zanaken.

Obviously i'm skeptical because my experience against stronger players is that they don't necessarily get pressured as easily as Zanaken makes it sound (they'll have the strength of nerve to sit and react to prep) so until I see a few gameplay videos from Zanaken I'm just going to keep his comments in mind under the "high risk, high reward" column that seemed to give him results.

WuHT, I love you. I couldn't ask for a more perfect response.

"Your ideas could potentiality work if it pays off. I'm not SURE, because some players might see through it, but they are there anyway."

What more do people think I want others to walk away with? When did the general forums for Raph become "Let's have a circle-jerk and cry about why our opponents win all the time."

 

[Fendante]

WuHT, I love you. I couldn't ask for a more perfect response.

"Your ideas could potentiality work if it pays off. I'm not SURE, because some players might see through it, but they are there anyway."

What more do people think I want others to walk away with? When did the general forums for Raph become "Let's have a circle-jerk and cry about why our opponents win all the time."

(Since your last two posts are just minutes apart, why not edit your earlier post instead of double posting?). WuHT is awesome yeah for contributing so much to the Raph SA. Anyway, the general consensus is that playing Raph in a manner in which you speak of is extremely risky and implausible. I am not saying that this is absolutely true. Please do not feel that anyone is calling you out or attacking you. As WuHT said, it would be helpful and educational for all of us if you could upload some of your gameplay. You would provide some action along with the words you have typed and solidify your ideas.

 

[Zanaken]

I can't win though.

If I post a video, the player I played against will have supposedly either played badly, or just be a bad player.

Plus, how does my personal performance affect my posts? I do well, sure, but it will either be seen as luck / a gimmick / voodoo if anyone sees me body someone, or a close match will just look like a combination of all 3.

 

[Party Wolf]

I can't win though.

If I post a video, the player I played against will have supposedly either played badly, or just be a bad player.

Plus, how does my personal performance affect my posts? I do well, sure, but it will either be seen as luck / a gimmick / voodoo if anyone sees me body someone, or a close match will just look like a combination of all 3.

Stop making it sound like everyone is against you. They want to see how your Raphael is so that they might learn something. NOBODY on this thread is attacking you, you are just percieving it as an attack because their opinion differs. The point of a Q&A is to help eachother. They aren't bashing you, they just want to know how your strategy works out in a real game, and maybe they will use it or help you develop it better. They also see flaws in your strategy (which every strategy has just some are more obvious than others) and are pointing it out for you and the people reading this thread. Don't be upset and take things negatively. They aren't flaming you, they are just making an effort to improve themselves, others, and maybe you if you let them.

 

[Zanaken]

Gotchya

 

[Gamegenie222]

Stop making it sound like everyone is against you. They want to see how your Raphael is so that they might learn something. NOBODY on this thread is attacking you, you are just percieving it as an attack because their opinion differs. The point of a Q&A is to help eachother. They aren't bashing you, they just want to know how your strategy works out in a real game, and maybe they will use it or help you develop it better. They also see flaws in your strategy (which every strategy has just some are more obvious than others) and are pointing it out for you and the people reading this thread. Don't be upset and take things negatively. They aren't flaming you, they are just making an effort to improve themselves, others, and maybe you if you let them.

This also what in the world are you doing around these parts?