Siegfried Q&A / General Discussion

[Sandman]

I mix it up with 3B though because that is a real force block or with 22B, which deals more dmg and is safe as well at that range.

So should I stop doing 66B after? Because KDZ told me to do that, lol. The problem is I often will get 6B instead of 66B, which is basically like saying "Hey, take a look at my cool sword, then hit me in the face real hard."

Post 22ka:2A you can further mix up between 3B/iaga/3A and 2A.

I use 1K here a lot too.

 

[ChaosK]

So should I stop doing 66B after? Because KDZ told me to do that, lol. The problem is I often will get 6B instead of 66B, which is basically like saying "Hey, take a look at my cool sword, then hit me in the face real hard."

Nah it depends on the MU. Against some chars you will be safe at that range so its pretty good here, against others like alpha its probably not that good. Another thing to consider for guard damage can be 66A+B here, which is a bit safer, or you could go for SCH B to keep the advantage.

I use 1K here a lot too.

That works pretty well too but most of the time you will be spaced out of 1K range, like after your 3B combo.
If your close enough you can mix in some trows too but you have to make sure your opponent is respecting your frames first (most people are not familiar with 22ka:2A's frames and will eat a few CH 3Bs first).

 

[Slayer_X64]

Yes it includes the 10 QS frames but it doesn't get faster from doing 6632ka:2A. You get rid of the sidestep animation that way though.

That is basically the thing, the i42 is pretty misleading because the opponent cannot react to the stepping part of the animation and then there are also the small faint frames. In the end its really not any easier to react than your regular 1A (which is still reactable though but it can be difficult).

Post 3(B)~SCH K BE~iaga is one of my preferred setups too. It spaces it perfectly at the tip and catches rollers and hits grounded. I mix it up with 3B though because that is a real force block or with 22B, which deals more dmg and is safe as well at that range.

Post 22ka:2A you can further mix up between 3B/iaga/3A and 2A.

Yes it includes the 10 QS frames but it doesn't get faster from doing 6632ka:2A. You get rid of the sidestep animation that way though.

That is basically the thing, the i42 is pretty misleading because the opponent cannot react to the stepping part of the animation and then there are also the small faint frames. In the end its really not any easier to react than your regular 1A (which is still reactable though but it can be difficult).

Post 3(B)~SCH K BE~iaga is one of my preferred setups too. It spaces it perfectly at the tip and catches rollers and hits grounded. I mix it up with 3B though because that is a real force block or with 22B, which deals more dmg and is safe as well at that range.

Post 22ka:2A you can further mix up between 3B/iaga/3A and 2A.

its not really decieving though because if you're trying to attack, the opponent can interrupt you with pretty much anything under i40. whats more if you're trying to punish, again, your 22_88ka:2A will come out just as late.

honestly this move only has a couple of uses - to throw out at very tip range to try to catch the opponent, or of course in whiff punishment. you may have more than enough time to execute the move on oki, but it is hardly effective. the move is incredibly reactable, and is unsafe to boot. even if they're not close enough to punish you're still giving advantage away needlessly.

outside of stepkilling, whiff punishing or CHing someone out of a move with it, this move is so slow that there shouldnt be a reason for your opponent NOT to block it. and honestly this move is so slow on execution that i cant see myself using it for CH fishing or even killing step TC's. i'd rely on WR A and 1AA for those things because they're better options due to their accessibility. and i dont think i would dare throw this move out as a poke because its waaaay to slow for that kind of thing. the move may be slightly safer and have some better properties, but anything good about this move is totally weighed down by its speed. If you're opponent gets hit by this, its their own fault.

of course if it keeps working, i suppose there's no reason to stop doing it lol.

 

[ChaosK]

its not really decieving though because if you're trying to attack, the opponent can interrupt you with pretty much anything under i40. whats more if you're trying to punish, again, your 22_88ka:2A will come out just as late.

Thats why you use it in situations where the opponent is limited in his options, so mainly on oki.

honestly this move only has a couple of uses - to throw out at very tip range to try to catch the opponent, or of course in whiff punishment. you may have more than enough time to execute the move on oki, but it is hardly effective. the move is incredibly reactable, and is unsafe to boot. even if they're not close enough to punish you're still giving advantage away needlessly.

I personally wouldn't use it for whiffpunishment because it doesn't deal any dmg on NH. And again, i am thinking you are getting deceived by it being i42 - you can at least distract 10-14 frames from that due to the QS frames and the faint. This move rarely gets blocked. As a rule of thumb, if they cannot block 1A consistently, they won't be able to block 22ka:2A consistently.

You use that move mainly in oki situations, when you would otherwise only mix up between the tip of 2A and a mid like 3B. However the benefit it has over 2A is that instead of being -4 (which means your pressure ends just there) its +2 which means you can either press the offense further or mix them up again. It also hits grounded, catches rollers and movement too and in case they were going for a slow wakeup attack they eat much more CH dmg then 2A would have given you. Unsafety is also usually not one of your concerns at its tip (its -15).

 

[MKHSpartan]

I block 1A on reaction...

 

[Slayer_X64]

Thats why you use it in situations where the opponent is limited in his options, so mainly on oki.
I personally wouldn't use it for whiffpunishment because it doesn't deal any dmg on NH. And again, i am thinking you are getting deceived by it being i42 - you can at least distract 10-14 frames from that due to the QS frames and the faint. This move rarely gets blocked. As a rule of thumb, if they cannot block 1A consistently, they won't be able to block 22ka:2A consistently.

You use that move mainly in oki situations, when you would otherwise only mix up between the tip of 2A and a mid like 3B. However the benefit it has over 2A is that instead of being -4 (which means your pressure ends just there) its +2 which means you can either press the offense further or mix them up again. It also hits grounded, catches rollers and movement too and in case they were going for a slow wakeup attack they eat much more CH dmg then 2A would have given you. Unsafety is also usually not one of your concerns at its tip (its -15).

im gonna assume you meant 1A here because 2A isnt really anything like 22_88ka2:A on hit.

its 10 frames added by quickstep, but even then the animation itself is still i32, and that is very very slow. rather than getting a move blocked on oki, i would rather get a shot at some free damage or a mixup. you may have enough frames for the move, but that doesnt mean it will be anymore effective. its a slow reactable low no matter how you look at it.

as for whiff punishment, the reason i listed that is because it would at least be functional in that situation. of course in that situation, like many others this move can be used in, siegfried has better options he can resort to anyways.

if they dont block 1A consistently, then they deserve to eat 22ka:2A. but if they've got a little bit of experience, there shouldnt be a reason why they cannot block it on reaction.

and in oki situations i would go for 3B/1K as 1K also catches rolling and is much faster than 1A. and well 2A doesnt even hit grounded, just incase you did mean 2A.

and well the move is reactable in oki - because siegfried lacks anything truly threatening in oki, i could just lay there and block the 22_88ka:2A. honestly i really think you're better off hitting with 1K and 3B - that way at least you're far less succeptable to silly things like wakeup CE's, because you are going out of your way to lockdown your oki frame advantage wise. whats most important oki wise in this game imo, is making your opponent respect your frame advantage on oki - less they get away with murder. afterall when our opponents dont lock down oki vs us, look at the damage siegfried can do with WR AA/WR B, and look at what wakeup CE's can do if you get greedy or you're not careful?

 

[ChaosK]

im gonna assume you meant 1A here because 2A isnt really anything like 22_88ka2:A on hit.

Nah i really meant 2A.
2A is kinda like your long range 1K. When i am in 1K range i always prefer to go for that one instead.
Sry that you had to write such a long post because of that.

I use 1K mainly in two ways:
- firstly as a post block mixup/frame advantage tool - 2A would be my long range 1K in those situations
- and secondly as an oki mixup tool - 22ka:2A would be my long range 1K here

I have other uses for my 1Ks of course but i just wanted to make clear where i was coming from with the 2A and 22ka:2A comparison. Hope that clears things up for you.

 

[Slayer_X64]

Nah i really meant 2A.
2A is kinda like your long range 1K. When i am in 1K range i always prefer to go for that one instead.
Sry that you had to write such a long post because of that.

I use 1K mainly in two ways:
- firstly as a post block mixup/frame advantage tool - 2A would be my long range 1K in those situations
- and secondly as an oki mixup tool - 22ka:2A would be my long range 1K here

I have other uses for my 1Ks of course but i just wanted to make clear where i was coming from with the 2A and 22ka:2A comparison. Hope that clears things up for you.

ahh ok. i understand now. thanks for the clarification.

eh honestly i ithink run up 1K is still the better option just because its a quick invisible low poke that can be mixed up with mids if the opponent actually feels inclined to block it. and its only -2, so siegfried still has some options on hit. and it locks down oki in alot of situations so that the opponent cant do anything(even CE)

 

[Sojoro]

So should I stop doing 66B after? Because KDZ told me to do that, lol. The problem is I often will get 6B instead of 66B, which is basically like saying "Hey, take a look at my cool sword, then hit me in the face real hard."

I use 1K here a lot too.

Yeaaaa ... don't use 66B against apat. I learned that the hard way at evo.

 

[MKHSpartan]

Yeaaaa ... don't use 66B against apat. I learned that the hard way at evo.

Yea that hurts quite a bit lol. Those double JF twisters or 3A+B combos.

 

[Der Lindwurm]

HAY GUYS... I'm looking for the threads/posts where everyone talks about how they want to still be playing Soul Calibur 4.... where the hell are they?

 

[Jimbonator]

HAY GUYS... I'm looking for the threads/posts where everyone talks about how they want to still be playing Soul Calibur 4.... where the hell are they?

http://8wayrun.com/threads/an-exper...st-chars-unrealistic.15751/page-2#post-592232

See "System Changes"

 

[Slayer_X64]

http://8wayrun.com/threads/an-exper...st-chars-unrealistic.15751/page-2#post-592232

See "System Changes"

oh so my wish to see the game made better, to see all of the whiffs and glitches fixed automatically makes me a naysayer and an SCIV lover? not only is that your opinion of me, but imo thats a pretty ignorant thing to say in public no less, and behind my back. if you have a problem with what i would like to see done with the game, that's between you and me, and is nobody elses business. either post it in that thread or take it to PM's with me, but keep it the hell out of this soul arena.

 

[Der Lindwurm]

Hey, Jim!

http://8wayrun.com/threads/an-experiment-stuff-you-want-to-see-in-sc6-that-is-not-from-past-games-guest-chars-unrealistic.15751/page-2#post-592232

Oh... I see. Though you sure made it sound like all this was happening right here in the Siegfried SA.

See "System Changes"

Well... I admit that I have zero experience with SC4 and don't know which of Slayer's proposals there would particularly mean going back to how it was in SC4 (or any other previous SCs, which I have equally little experience with besides the original SBE). Mostly expanded movelists and more variation among the characters, I guess? Otherwise, I only see where he specifically says he doesn't want things to be the same way they were in SC4.

I also don't see why any of that should be interpreted as moaning about Siegfried. It sounds to me like he'd want all the characters to benefit from a wider range of moves and less whiffing (since even I know it's not like Siegfried's the only one...) Seriously, if that's complaining at all it's pretty lightweight compared to the uproar I've seen over the characters who didn't make it into SC5 or the indignation that other characters' stances were messed with.

 

[MKHSpartan]

oh so my wish to see the game made better, to see all of the whiffs and glitches fixed automatically makes me a naysayer and an SCIV lover? not only is that your opinion of me, but imo thats a pretty ignorant thing to say in public no less, and behind my back. if you have a problem with what i would like to see done with the game, that's between you and me, and is nobody elses business. either post it in that thread or take it to PM's with me, but keep it the hell out of this soul arena.

Agreed.

Hey, Jim!

Oh... I see. Though you sure made it sound like all this was happening right here in the Siegfried SA.

Well... I admit that I have zero experience with SC4 and don't know which of Slayer's proposals there would particularly mean going back to how it was in SC4 (or any other previous SCs, which I have equally little experience with besides the original SBE). Mostly expanded movelists and more variation among the characters, I guess? Otherwise, I only see where he specifically says he doesn't want things to be the same way they were in SC4.

I also don't see why any of that should be interpreted as moaning about Siegfried. It sounds to me like he'd want all the characters to benefit from a wider range of moves and less whiffing (since even I know it's not like Siegfried's the only one...) Seriously, if that's complaining at all it's pretty lightweight compared to the uproar I've seen over the characters who didn't make it into SC5 or the indignation that other characters' stances were messed with.

Seconded as well.

I mean seriously Jimbonator, Slayer made a rather reasonable list of what he would like to see in a SC6, most, if not all of which I would like to see myself, it was well worded and presented how does that give the impression this whole Soul Arena just sits here and bitches? Plus it wasn't even posted here in the Soul Arena...

 

[Sojoro]

snip

Am I the only one here who thinks Siegfried is good. I mean, sure he whiffs and there are other characters people use more due to tier lists and what not, is he bad or I'm just lacking knowledge.

 

[ChaosK]

Am I the only one here who thinks Siegfried is good. I mean, sure he whiffs and there are other characters people use more due to tier lists and what not, is he bad or I'm just lacking knowledge.

You can use every character in this game. It is very well balanced.

 

[IRM]

imma be honest. I only know 2 SCV Seig Players who NEVER bitch about Seig. they take it how it is and adapt to it. not trying to offend anyone here though.

 

[Jimbonator]

oh so my wish to see the game made better, to see all of the whiffs and glitches fixed automatically makes me a naysayer and an SCIV lover? not only is that your opinion of me, but imo thats a pretty ignorant thing to say in public no less, and behind my back. if you have a problem with what i would like to see done with the game, that's between you and me, and is nobody elses business. either post it in that thread or take it to PM's with me, but keep it the hell out of this soul arena.

You are implying that I implied certain things with that last post. Der made a post about Sieg players trapped in the SCIV mindset and I gave him the best piece of evidence I could find at the time. Things in that post such as movement attack changes, frame changes, GI changes, wake up changes, MOVESET CHANGES (COUGH), are all extremely reminiscent of the previous installment. Hell, even your proposal for JG changes reeks of SCIV influence. I'm not saying we should keep dumb stuff like whiffs and glitches in, everyone here can agree that those need to be fixed. Things changed because of the system change. I'm not saying your post is shitty and dumb and that you have no one's interests in mind. No need to get so indignant, this isn't some sanctuary you have to protect.

Agreed.

Seconded as well.

I mean seriously Jimbonator, Slayer made a rather reasonable list of what he would like to see in a SC6, most, if not all of which I would like to see myself, it was well worded and presented how does that give the impression this whole Soul Arena just sits here and bitches? Plus it wasn't even posted here in the Soul Arena...

Pretty sure you are finding words i've said and are flipping them in a context that suits this argument. Never said that post was bad and incoherent. I also realize it was not posted in this very soul arena. I'll admit, things were a million times worse here a while back. But now its more of a spoken word thing rather than posts. And whatever posts does have a slight taint of Siegfried is poo it falls on the safety net of good ol fun sarcasm when pointed out but inconvienent truth when not challenged. If anything I just pointed out the elephant in the room

 

[ChaosK]

imma be honest. I only know 2 SCV Seig Players who NEVER bitch about Seig. they take it how it is and adapt to it. not trying to offend anyone here though.

While this is certainly true, i dont see how it is different from other SA's.
Party Wolf is the only Xiba Player i know that is not constantly bitching about how bad Xiba is, i dont know a single yoshi player who talks good about yoshi, i dont know any positive leixias or ivys either, i dont know any voldo player who never bitched and the list goes on.

I think jimbos rant was justified in regard of there being a lot of bitching in the Sieg SA, however i found it a bit unfair that it was singled out like that because there is just as much bitching in other SA's.
Hell i can watch Winterbrawl with Sandman having more On air time than anyone else and never hear a single complaint about siegfried yet every second sentence from people like jaxel is about how bad xiba is.

I felt its a bit unfair that the finger is pointed at the Sieg SA, when there is just as much BS going on in other SA's and somehow when it happens there it gets tolerated. I think its especially not fair when unlike in other SA's there are actually people like Heaton trying to improve the image and mood of the SA for months, when there doesnt even seem to be similar incentives in other SAs.

I dont mean this in any offensive way, just wanted to state how i think about the whole thing.