Preparation Glitch Discussion

[Slade]

Hardly. Monkey see Prep, monkey do 2363B/JFT. He doesn't have to 'fully and accurately' do anything, just pick between two moves and let the damage disparity bring him out on top.

And again, Prep is not an optimal state, it is a gateway to SE. Prep against aPat is as much of a gamble as Russian roulette with a semiautomatic.

 

[Real_Bojack]

The Raphael is binary and rigid in his choice, the APat is fluid and quick to react.

Once Raph enters Prep he IS binary and rigid in choice. What Slade's been trying to tell you (as best I can tell, I may be wrong) is that vs. aPat Raph has screwed up the second he Preps at all. Since FGes are all about options and option limiting, Raph chooses to self limit to like 5 options all of which are severely punishable.

aPat is only limited by guessing the wrong counter, which to a large extent he doesn't even have to guess. Empty prep into L or throw takes chrome plated balls to do vs. aPat. Otherwise he can sit there till his heart's content since Prep has no L or throw and then clobber Raph. An aPat quick on his toes with 2363aB Raph in the face for any and all SE transitions on reaction so you can't do that vs. him at likely any range or angle. Perhaps aPat does allow himself to be Prep 4'ed or does a H and triggers auto SE................. that's aPat's mistake, not your success.

If you want to "discuss" this more fully we can go over all of the crap you and I and some others went over months back to wind up at the same conclusion.

 

[Delloso]

I don't think any option is completely invalid on any mu. If Apat isn't expecting Prep or Se he is not going to insta 2363B on reaction, and if he tries he won't do it in time and get hit by stuff like Prep K or a Se move. I still think that hitting Raph out of Se on reaction is a dangerous move for any character, and only works if Raph is acting predictably.

What I'm saying is if Raph makes his prep entries rare and random enough, Apat will be caught off guard and won't have time to react properly, which could get him hit by SEB or prep K BE. It is not about limiting your own options, it's about keeping your moves from being readable.

 

[Fendante]

Yes delloso. Sorry for this rant. In most MU, Prep is a mixup tool meant to create hard to read situations. These allow Raph to pressure opponents, obtain high reward at high risk, and most importantly, enter SE safely (one of the best stances in the game). 19 frames sounds like a lot on paper but in actual gameplay, it's not that easy and even risky to react to and stop. No character, except Astaroth can blow through all Prep options without having to stay focused and make guesses. Even the golem can be punished hard for trying to 66K a faked Prep entry. Raph's Prep BB BE can score CH dmg, Prep K and Prep AB can stop step, SE dodges all highs, and Prep 4 can GI all verticals. Prep fakes allow normal guard or JG followed by punishes. The fencer has options for all anti-prep options.

If Prep in some matchup is just wayy tooo dangerous, then stay away from it on block.

 

[Real_Bojack]

I can blow through all Prep options. It's called G. It beats all Prep options, and Prep moves take a LONG time to break G. At high level the opp will have the patience to sit there all day long letting Raph Prep because they know there's little threat if they simply don't hit buttons. SE of course can force a decision but that's assuming Raph actually gets a chance to get to SE. Also, on block all SE transitions are interruptable in most cases AFAIK. Do Prep and SE have places in Raph's game? Certainly.

The way Zany describes? No, not really. He's basically making a Football bet wherein he wins 5 quid if Manchester wins, but gives a 1000 quid if Manchester loses.

BTW, before it's too late, Happy 4th of July ol' Zany.

 

[Reptile]

Zanaken when are we playing online again?

Jim plays a good Raph, too. Maybe you can understand the difference of playing tourney players if you experience it for yourself. Not that it's gonna make it offline though.
Oh right, you're from Europe though...

 

[Zanaken]

As soon as you lube up your anus, friend.

 

[Reptile]

As soon as you lube up your anus, friend.

Looks like we're playing tonight then. GT: Reptile 149

 

[Zanaken]

I'll try and get on later, it will be Saturday though, so you might not see me till rather late.

 

[IAdoreBunnies]

Upload the replays. It is imperative that one of you do this.

 

[Zanaken]

So I tried iPrep on a controller instead of my usual stick input... Jesus, it's so damn easy! Just flick the analogue and tap the bumper you assigned to A+B. I find if I didn't polish up the input that very day, I just don't bother going for it in a match when using my normal stick.

Incidentally, a CH SE A is my new favorite time to use it. It becomes nigh-on unsteppable and causes a BD 236B, 44A+B or B+K mix-up. As in, the only moves that can punish it after the CH SE A range are verticals (Asta says hi with bullrush,) so I genuinely want it blocked.

If an opponent knows to not try and punish after the block, you can just run up and grab / 11K.

It's not 100% effective, but then again, even step isn't.

PS: Reptile, where have you been? I kinda looked forward to our session with slightly homoerotic undertones.

 

[Real_Bojack]

Incidentally, a CH SE A is my new favorite time to use it. It becomes nigh-on unsteppable and causes a BD 236B, 44A+B or B+K mix-up. As in, the only moves that can punish it after the CH SE A range are verticals (Asta says hi with bullrush,) so I genuinely want it blocked.

.

For clarification,

CH SE A, iPrep A+B right? As in the move where Raph goes into Prep, goes into sway evade, then does the horizontal slash................ THEN if it hits on CH doing the iPrep A+B?

If that's the case then (going by posted frame data), you start with SE A and get + 8 on either NH or CH so good news, your plan works on any hit! Then do a 33 frame move. Soooooo they seem to get a whopping 25 frames to do something if'n my frame math is correct. That's an awful long time to react in Calibur, even BT. You must pray to the Deer in Headlights Lord e'ery night don't you?

 

[youngfox]

A late reply but bojack in regard to G beating all of prep i think that is in raphs favor. if my opponent only wants to block and react to SE then i can prep AB can create a good amount of distance on block with that move. IF my opponent is gonna give me that for free than i will gladly take it.

 

[Delloso]

Do you stop prep after prep AB? Because that leaves you at -16 and the range you get isn't enough to avoid punishment against most characters, especially because you need to be very close for prep A to land. Bojack has a point, Raph could use getting his sc4 prep K back, or any sort of fast low. Maybe they could make his 66A+G a prep throw.

 

[Fendante]

Do you stop prep after prep AB? Because that leaves you at -16 and the range you get isn't enough to avoid punishment against most characters, especially because you need to be very close for prep A to land. Bojack has a point, Raph could use getting his sc4 prep K back, or any sort of fast low. Maybe they could make his 66A+G a prep throw.

Yeah most Prep moves are unsafe on block but if they just sat there, blocked, and waited for SE, I usually did a single Prep A or a single Prep B without fear of a TC.

Prep K:K in SC4 was -17 on block with no tracking. Raph could easily whiff and look really stupid spinning and waiting for punishment. I disliked the move mostly because it was very ridiculous and unrealistic.

I agree that we need a low(s) in Prep to make the stance safer. Wuht made a great suggestion a long time ago. Make Prep have only ONE evasive action instead of being a gateway to SE. SE and all of it's followup attacks should become a completely independent stance by itself. Let Prep 4 have TC frames and cranial scraper back and Im happy lol. Prep 2 can then be available for low attacks. Btw I never thought of a command throw in Prep but it sounds good. It could stop step, get through guard, can't be GIed, but can be TCed.

 

[Real_Bojack]

A late reply but bojack in regard to G beating all of prep i think that is in raphs favor. if my opponent only wants to block and react to SE then i can prep AB can create a good amount of distance on block with that move. IF my opponent is gonna give me that for free than i will gladly take it.

I've discussed the potential of doing empty Prep or the out come of doing things in Prep. You can possibly use Prep moves to give yourself space. That's not a terrible thing mind you, it's mostly a productive venture. That being said it doesn't actually DO a whole lot.

Unless you re-Prep you're at fairly heavy negatives (IIRC too lazy to double check frames) so you gain space at the cost of advantage. So it's basically just resetting the match to a more neutral state so in the end Raph hasn't accomplished much against a patient composed player so basically simple G beat the Prep if Raph does that because there's still nothing to really force a reaction from the opp. Something Raph does AFTER Prep maybe but due to the Prep or moves from Prep? No.

 

[youngfox]

with out trying to derail this thread too much it should be said for a character like raph space is very important in most MUs. against someone like viola i will take what ever i can to create space even if it puts me at -16 (prepAB) which isnt too bad considering how much space is created, hell at that range you can still backstep alot of punishes while being at negative. that creation of space puts alot of MUs in ur favor at that range which forces a smart opponent to try and stop it which makes the option of reentering prep a decent mix up. so i humbly disagree with your analysis since eventually those shorter range characters will have to choose to react to prep AB by ducking or play the lil mix up after a blocked prep AB which means they still are reacting to a prep move

 

[Real_Bojack]

that creation of space puts alot of MUs in ur favor at that range which forces a smart opponent to try and stop it which makes the option of reentering prep a decent mix up. so i humbly disagree with your analysis since eventually those shorter range characters will have to choose to react to prep AB by ducking or play the lil mix up after a blocked prep AB which means they still are reacting to a prep move

Well played. I'll discard my old opinion until I've had more time to test this simply because it is advantageous to create space against certain MU's (I dunno about your Viola example tho). I still assert that it cannot truly FORCE the opponent to do that much but it can be more useful for Raph than I had thought in those situations where one can Prep safely to begin.

Still doesn't make Prep that much more dangerous tho' lollers.

 

[Signia]

If you mix up between going into prep and not going into prep (especially if they have great answers to it), are able to CH confirm Prep BB for the BE, know spacing of opponent's moves and how to evade them, delay moves effectively in prep and SE to mess up step-attack timing or hit TCs, have the ability to make the hardest of reads... then you can make Prep work. Prep is like playing a character with no fast safe mid or the ability to step or guard but with an aGIing backstep, insane TC, insane CH tool, and you have to be able to do everything well to make it worth it. I just described a low tier character...

Anyway, with Raph, you should focus on the neutral game, taking advantage of his speed and range, and try not to play any clear guessing games, because the risk/reward just isn't in your favor. That means delay all your attacks, shorten strings, and know frames/ranges where 6BB will stuff them at disadvantage. They must never know the timing of when you're going to attack or try a low or whatever. Prep comes in when you bait stray whiffs and punish with 3(B) Prep B(B)*A(B) or when you chance a 66(B) or 44A(B), or when using spaced 3B and 6BB as a zoning tool, sometimes going into prep and sometimes not. It's never something you going into for the sake of going into.