the problem with sc...

tribal you lack a fundamental understanding of the step system SC4 has, or you wouldn't be saying these things

It's EASY to step you just have to know what frames are good and not good to step at. You want to single tap the direction, and you have the option of cutting your step short with G. Step G is low risk, high reward, and every character can use it (though some better than others).

why simply block cass BB when I can step it and get a free combo? this is on prediction of course, but you're not exactly putting your head on a chopping block for trying to step most of the time. suddenly their head is on the chopping block just for throwing out a "safe" move
 
Tiamat said:
tribal you lack a fundamental understanding of the step system SC4 has, or you wouldn't be saying these things

It's EASY to step you just have to know what frames are good and not good to step at. You want to single tap the direction, and you have the option of cutting your step short with G. Step G is low risk, high reward, and every character can use it (though some better than others).

why simply block cass BB when I can step it and get a free combo? this is on prediction of course, but you're not exactly putting your head on a chopping block for trying to step most of the time. suddenly their head is on the chopping block just for throwing out a "safe" move
Click to expand...

unfortunately, step g doesn't do anything against the moves that i already brought up because, as you said, your cutting down on the distance of your sidestep. yea, a bb can be stepped (well, mostly, raph's bb's, even after the patch, still track a little bit), but i wasn't referring to stepping simple bb's.

i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to implement more stepping g. i mean, i was doing that before, but i wasn't finding it very effective. maybe i wasn't doing it well. i have to admit, i don't understand when you say "have to know what frames are [not good] to step at." i never step all willy-nilly for the hell of it.

and, for the record, i knew what step g was ^_^.
 
tribal said:
unfortunately, step g doesn't do anything against the moves that i already brought up because, as you said, your cutting down on the distance of your sidestep. Yea, a bb can be stepped (well, mostly, raph's bb's, even after the patch, still track a little bit), but i wasn't referring to stepping simple bb's.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to implement more stepping g. I mean, i was doing that before, but i wasn't finding it very effective. Maybe i wasn't doing it well. I have to admit, i don't understand when you say "have to know what frames are [not good] to step at." i never step all willy-nilly for the hell of it.

And, for the record, i knew what step g was ^_^.
Click to expand...

your smile face is disgust-disintegrate.
 
I mean you gotta know frame data and stuff to understand what stuff is good or bad to step after.

-5 on block stuff into step G will dodge even the fastest BBs just fine, but not some other things like amy 6BB. another example is that stepping after being hit by BBs is good because BBs/most other moves don't give a ton of advantage on hit, usually it's between 1 and 5 plus frames for the opponent

yet another example: nightmare agA (+0 on guard) > step G vs cass. If she did BB I step and punish, if she did 2A I still block it even though I stepped. For this particular instant you render almost her entire movelist useless from neutral, you can't tell me that isn't powerful
 
tribaL said:
example: sieg, almost every single sieg uses the same exact srsh "dash" into either the k or the b, both of which have stun followups. i get it... it's effective, so people use it. that's fine. but because of the stiffness in movement in sc4, everyone sets it up the same way through the same moves. actually, i find sieg to be the biggest offender of this mostly because i find that players use essentially the same things to get into the same stances to force the same mixups.
Click to expand...

Not to defend this behavior, because i agree in the point that we dont really see too many players using unique transitions into moves, but this is in part due to the fear that siggy can fairly easily get poked out of any of his stances if you play around in them too long.

tribaL said:
another example: yoshi's drg, often i see people (myself included) only really uses this for the b_k mixup on wake-ups.
Click to expand...

I find this to be almost entirely untrue. MANY yoshi players ive seen make full use of all of his stances/the teleports that come with them/the unique movement options and attacks throughout normal play.

tribaL said:
kilik: bp a and b is also all too often used only for wake-ups. again i get that it's effective for okizeme, but it always the same 50/50.
Click to expand...

the K-man doesnt play the wake up game too well. Its not like he doesnt have anything, but then again its not like hes voldo. Some things i and many other good Kilik players make FREQUENT use of on wakeup: BP A, BP B, 66B, 1_3A+B, 4A+B, FotD, 2k(s) , FC A+B, MO A, MO B, MO K, 6B+K. get the picture?
tribaL said:
lizzy: omg, all i ever see is crwl a and mixups from there. even oof can be seen abusing this in the finals against wingzero. again, yea it works, but i wish there were more ways of using it.
Click to expand...
crawl mixups are strong.
tribaL said:
now, on the other side of the coin, some characters have these stances, but rarely do they ever really need to use them.
Click to expand...

i disagree with this as well. I think that these characters can win without their stances and such being that theyre pretty damn solid, but that some of their very best stuff comes of of these stances, and no(or close to no) high level player that mains one of the them goes without using them.
tribaL said:
voldo: face it, this guy is solid even without cr or mc (which is sad because mc was something that i really like seeing implemented, and so many people did it so well [aris, jayshadow]). one could argue bs is it's own separate stance, but i don't really consider that a stance so much so as an extension of his regular movelist. usually stances has some sort of property change, aside from being able to get bt thrown, voldo himself is essentially playing the same exact way (even some of his moves are the same).
Click to expand...

voldo in BT and normal voldo are two very different beasts. not to say that BT opens up a world of unique movement options, but there are really a ton of differances, even down to how fast the character walks, the speed of his a's and b's and such. MC in this game is no where near as good as it was in the past, so it has to be used sparingly, but that doesnt mean it isnt used or isnt usable. He even now has the 'landfish' stance which is pretty lulzy, but is still useable, and i even make use of it from time to time.
tribaL said:
soph: very rarely do i ever find a need to be in angel step. sometimes i get lucky and i tech crouch something, but really all you need angel step for is a buffer to get 236236b faster. that move being amazing for so many reasons.
Click to expand...
im not a soph player, but here's my perspective anyway. she moves fast and low using the steps. it seems like if you can apply some good pressure with her, 236236(ect) grab and B becomes a pretty decent mixup. It seems like this could be used to really make someone feel the pressure.

tribaL said:
an addendum to this first point:

people tend to use the same moves with the same characters from the basic movelists as well. this makes sense because all the characters have moves that are better than others. all fighting games are guilty of this, but the fact that sc4 feels so stiff is why i'm starting to see is people essentially playing the same exact way.
Click to expand...
thats not this games fault. just because people dont take advantage of the options given to them doesnt mean they dont exist.
This game IS slower and stiffer than sc2. But that doesnt mean that the game is stiff. Try playing against a decent taki of voldo and you should really get a feel for what im saying. the hits and stance transitions just keep flowing into eachother, and if its done right it almost seems like everything they do flows them into a different position that they want to be in so they can start a new string or such.

to be continued later, got my hands full ATM
 
It's simple really...In North America we play to win...simple enough. So why should I go for a high damaging combo if I can mess up the execution and lose out instead of an easy predictable one but that does sufficient damage? Why should I step if I can win without doing so? Basically why take a risk, and harper my chances of winning? Just to look flashy?

Not happening.

What you're describing Tribal is called high level play, and unless someone pushes you to play like that you won't find it necessary to put in the effort.

Best of my own knowledge, barely do I ever put 100% in a fight, I don't utilize everything I possibly could...and when a chance arises against a good player...I am way out of practice to know when to step, break throws, jump, counter this and that. So that's pretty much it.

BTW I have already explained step, which means you haven't been reading. Step in SC4 is a skill, not just any one can use effectively.

I hope you watched the vids I posted...otherwise these guys disprove your theory on SC4.
http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=5gnc7Ehw_SU
 
Coming from a 2d fighter background into SC2, 3 and 4, I can't agree with the original premise that SC4 is lacking movement. In most 2d fighters, you have: walk, run/dash, jump, maybe super jump, and maybe rolling. All other movement is part of attacks, like a tatsu for example.

Taki was my primary in SC2-4 and she can: 8wr (in eight directions, not just two like in 2d fighters), step (again, 8 directions, not just 2), hop/jump (3 directions), stalker (3 directions), wind roll (1 direction), possession rush (3 directions). That's 26 different types of movement. Akuma in 3rd strike has walk (2), dash (2), jump (3), super jump (3), demon flip (1), teleport (2) for a grand total of 13, half of Taki's.

Hell, Smash Brothers (all varieties) has basically walk (2), run (2), jump (3), and that's it, except in Melee which added wave dashing.
 
Tiamat said:
I mean you gotta know frame data and stuff to understand what stuff is good or bad to step after.

-5 on block stuff into step G will dodge even the fastest BBs just fine, but not some other things like amy 6BB. another example is that stepping after being hit by BBs is good because BBs/most other moves don't give a ton of advantage on hit, usually it's between 1 and 5 plus frames for the opponent

yet another example: nightmare agA (+0 on guard) > step G vs cass. If she did BB I step and punish, if she did 2A I still block it even though I stepped. For this particular instant you render almost her entire movelist useless from neutral, you can't tell me that isn't powerful
Click to expand...

oh hell yea i understand that completely. i'm not talking about blindly stepping everything, as i said "stepping isn't always the most viable option," and i'm not saying that people don't do that. again, i wasn't just talking about stepping regular b's, if anything b's are the easiest strings to step (except maybe yoshi's 44b+k. trooper roll lost every single bit of it's tracking.).

kingace: i've seen those vids and they are, by far, the most entertaining vids of sc4 i've seen. it does take away from a lot of what i've said. that begs the question then: why aren't more people doing it?

then again, for namco games anyways, koreans are usually a step ahead of everyone else.
 
I agree with the OP. SC is a load of bullcrap with the movement. In Tekken sweeping in and out was the fundamental of the game. In SC people just spam buttons and because characters have weapons and thus bigger range than any in tekken it is impossible to recreate the same sort of movement tactics as you can get caught a thousand times trying to get in close.

Oh man, Kazuya was so fun with f pause qcf triangle ;D
 
Rewind_uK said:
I agree with the OP. SC is a load of bullcrap with the movement. In Tekken sweeping in and out was the fundamental of the game. In SC people just spam buttons and because characters have weapons and thus bigger range than any in tekken it is impossible to recreate the same sort of movement tactics as you can get caught a thousand times trying to get in close.

Oh man, Kazuya was so fun with f pause qcf triangle ;D
Click to expand...


hey now, you may agree with me to some extent, but i'm not agreeing with your reasoning for agreeing with me.
 
Rewind_uK said:
I agree with the OP. SC is a load of bullcrap with the movement. In Tekken sweeping in and out was the fundamental of the game. In SC people just spam buttons and because characters have weapons and thus bigger range than any in tekken it is impossible to recreate the same sort of movement tactics as you can get caught a thousand times trying to get in close.

Oh man, Kazuya was so fun with f pause qcf triangle ;D
Click to expand...

lol if you're sarcastic then yeah thats pretty funny.

if you're not , then stick with tekken then.
 
I agree with you tribal in the sense that the movement in this game isnt like tekken at all but i think tekken is a bit rediculous with the ability to spam step constantly without any type risk. But it is not as nearly as stiff as VF step!!! Im gonna have to stay that right off the bat......the step system takes getting used to but after a few weeks it actually is rather easy and effective. The back and forth spacing is really stiff and has been minimized significantly since the last games. I will post better vids of people that space and step well as i find them because the movement in this game is not as bad as you think............

P.S wavedashing in tekken is useless.......at least thats what alot of elite players say now.
 
wavedashing used to be effective. tekken 6 is garbage and a totally different story though. i refuse to ever play that game again. i really thought that namco was going to patch some things with bloodline rebellion, but they didn't do shit really.
 
I personally don't think there's anything wrong with the stepping system. Could it be faster? Sure. Does it need to be? No.

My biggest issue with Soul Calibur IV is tracking on vertical moves. Stepping should technically beat vertical attacks, while horizontal attacks counter stepping. This isn't the case as some vertical moves can literally rotate the character 45 degrees to connect with the stepper.

It's frustrating when you anticipate a move, step it, then are forced to block on the third attack in the string because it's going to track you. Whatever advantage you had is lost on block.

I've learned to deal with it. Once you know which moves track, life becomes much easier and stepping becomes second nature. However, I'd really like to see Namco tone down the aimbot they've given some of the characters ingame. I won't stop playing if they don't, but I would enjoy the game alot more, if more emphasis was put on positioning.
 
I'll have to disagree. As a fan of the series since Soul Edge, SC4 is the game sc3 should have been. Of all fighters it has the most dizzying amount of movement options available. From cancels to stances, you can really confuse your opponent. I can see where you're coming from as far as whining (and yes what ur doing is called whining) about players sticking to signature moves and not making competition challenging, new or exciting. I run into that some online, but thats EVERY fighting game. Signature moves not only give a character their identity, but also establishes their area of expertise (i.e. long range, short range, speed, etc.). Personally, I practice a lot and study the game. -But everyone doesn't think about every little technical aspect of the game. Basically, if you want to form a "league" of all the most advanced SC4 players that count frames and memorized every move, by all means utilize the net and find them, only stick to them and maybe you'll find the challenge you seek. Otherwise don't completely tear down the greatest fighting game to come along in years. Until SF4 comes and dethrones it, SC4 is king. Period.

-Oh and next time you want to dis a great game like SC4 at least bring in a better comparison than Tekken. That series was sooo revolutionary.....in the early 90s when they invented 3d polygon characters! Tekken hasn't been anything good since Tekken Tag. And ain't it funny how you love Tekken so much over SC4 when Yoshi is sooo much better in SC4? Just a thought.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom