1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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I'm still not sure about Sophie but for now I put her higher than Cass. BB second hit tracking step G makes quite a difference (neg frames vs getting comboed). A lot of the characters I list in C are probably B but I'm being a pessimist about it.

Yun and Talim most people say are lower mid or low, but I haven't studied them enough to judge. Zas is certainly below average. His normal hit damage is low and his lack of long range lows and quick recovery anti-step stuff on block is a problem. His throws also do less than 50 damage each and his oki from them sucks too, though his throw range is decent (maybe slightly better than average).
 
Sisters are so overrated. I'm disappointed most people in the community don't know how to fight them. Then again, like people are saying, after a while it's kind of boring to go on and on about tiers when most of you speaking about these chars have yet to do something w/them and are playing theory fighter;)
 
Tiamat:

That's exactly why I only focus on S-Tier, A-Tier, and shitty tier. The in betweens mean nothing to me.

Anyway it was fun debating with some people who actually know what they are talking about.

I now have an idea of the most important characters to look out for.

No need to be in this thread anymore.
 
Something-Unique said:
One final example is vs. Siegfried with his supposed frame traps but in reality he has none if you step. For example 3 into k or kk can be stepped to his left with a true step taking away all frame traps. I can't begin to tell u how many Siggys I have stepped this way and had them eat a A+B. Jian can vouch for me here as the last time he played my Kilik he ate a million. You can do it off of his WR one to.
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If he does SCH [A] SSH K your A+B will be countered, the only option that is working decently is Right StepGuarding (to block eventually SCH A) then 4B will TC beat all SSH move, also evade SCH AA. But even with with in reality Siegfried can do SCH [A] > 8_2B+K SCH B to punish you.

It's the same case when you believe that SRSH K is punisable by Kilik's WS B, it's not true, cause Siegfried can 8_2B+K SCH B to punish you.

Actually there is a lot's of thing that you won't know before than an opponnent develop it. One example of this : the last challenge beetween Keev and Saitoh last week was a totaly new game to my eyes, Keev has played with different move, different strategy and developped different mind games to counter a bad match-up (vs Astaroth) and they finished 10 to 8, prooving this day that Nightmare can be played differently to counter Astaroth.

What i want to say is that : we can discuss and etablish statement about match-up, tier list etc... but it's only valuable at the actual day. There will be always a way that we don't know, cause we won't know everything, it's like perfection, we can approch, but not reach it.

The discussion here is interresting, but remember to not clam a thing like you know everything in this game, and tell imuable statement. That's also help to grow up your level, cause it makes you research and improve even if everyone in the world think that you play a lowtier. That's how i worked for SC2 Yunsung, and how wrks Keev i think for SC4 Nightmare or Talim.
 
And just when I though this thread has nothing to offer ...

I wholeheartedly agree with Hayate. Creativity can compensate for weaknessess as well as character strong sides can. The matter of fact if you can force your game on an opponent making it inconvinient for him or risky. Theres no way to find any solution without being open-minded.
Saying character is linear is easy but it doesnt explain anything. In fact you have to realize step doesnt solve anything opponents still retains the advantage, maybe its harder to apply it, but he still can, and that's what matters. And remember step is only a part of the game.
 
@ Something Unique

I definetely do not see Cassandra in the same Tier as Algol, Hilde and Kilik. Apart from that i do not see Algol and Kilik in the same Tier as Hilde, but thats another story.

Post Block Punishment of course is a big issue in Soul Calibur, especially in a game with such unsafe Movelists. Sometimes when i see people playing against Cervantes i really dont know whether to laugh or cry. Sophitia can punish 80% of his USEFULL Moves, and thats a fact. Damn she even gets a 236236B:4 for a lot of blocked Moves. People just dont know how to punish properly imo.

In SC History there were always people who were representing Low Tiers, look at Hayate in SC2 with Yun or Keev winning with Rock in the End of SC3 against Kayanes X. These were characters who had much bigger problems than Cassy. Cassy has not much Range and is linear, right. But apart from that she is almost flawless, making her a very good character.

I mean look at Aris or JTO. JTO plays the most boring Cassy ive ever seen, but he is still winning with her, just with some Pokes, incredible defense and Throws, thats what i remember from the last vids. I wanna see people "Step Guarding" against Aris and JTO, thats nothing you cant adapt too.

You cant judge a character with statements like "just Step G or use retreat Moves", that is pure Theory Fighting,otherwise this would fit into the majority of the cast, since a lot of Moves do not have proper tracking.

The best what you can do is a flipchart or just concentrate on S and A just like you.

For me it would be:

S+: Hilde
S: Algol, Kilik
A: Voldo, Sophitia, Cassandra, Amy, X, Asta, Cervantes, Setsuka

Voldo maybe in S, im not quite sure about that. Every Character as some minor flaws in A but compete very very well.

Well everybody agrees on the Three Tops, for the rest we will never find the answer i guess :)
 
Hayate said:
If he does SCH [A] SSH K your A+B will be countered, the only option that is working decently is Right StepGuarding (to block eventually SCH A) then 4B will TC beat all SSH move, also evade SCH AA. But even with with in reality Siegfried can do SCH [A] > 8_2B+K SCH B to punish you.

It's the same case when you believe that SRSH K is punisable by Kilik's WS B, it's not true, cause Siegfried can 8_2B+K SCH B to punish you.

Actually there is a lot's of thing that you won't know before than an opponnent develop it. One example of this : the last challenge beetween Keev and Saitoh last week was a totaly new game to my eyes, Keev has played with different move, different strategy and developped different mind games to counter a bad match-up (vs Astaroth) and they finished 10 to 8, prooving this day that Nightmare can be played differently to counter Astaroth.

What i want to say is that : we can discuss and etablish statement about match-up, tier list etc... but it's only valuable at the actual day. There will be always a way that we don't know, cause we won't know everything, it's like perfection, we can approch, but not reach it.

The discussion here is interresting, but remember to not clam a thing like you know everything in this game, and tell imuable statement. That's also help to grow up your level, cause it makes you research and improve even if everyone in the world think that you play a lowtier. That's how i worked for SC2 Yunsung, and how wrks Keev i think for SC4 Nightmare or Talim.
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You missed the point though. Every character is gonna give you problems and no situation is completely guranteed everytime.

You have to think out of context what i'm saying.

I refered to the Frame trap situation of Siggy's WS and less of an extent 3 for the purpose of showing how you can make things more difficult for certain characters.

Step left steps almost everything in Siggys movelist and me referring to the situation above was to show you how you can take away his frame traps making the match more difficult for him because you take away his frame trap advantage and now it becomes mind games. The advantage is gone.

So for example the Kilik player can now just use 6AAA to destroy every choice he can make or Step A+B.

If you did not step in this situation to make your opponent wonder about his choices the frame trap K would be in your face everytime.

Also lets say I gamble Step A+B and guess wrong and eat an A from that stance. What's the trade off. How much am I getting hurt compared to him.

That's the kind of stuff that happens when u have a character who relies to much on mixup situations as opposed to characters who instead of using mixups get straight to the gritty with one shot setups like.

Kilik, Setsuka, Sophie. They are straight to the point.

It's the same thing with Maxi since he is so much about strings there is always an unnecessary gamble even though mind games will work.

That's what a tier list is about.

Either way you look at it there is character placements that belong where they belong in comparison. It does not mean that people can't win with other characters. This thread is about why characters are better than others.

That is my point.

docvizzo said:
@ Something Unique

I definetely do not see Cassandra in the same Tier as Algol, Hilde and Kilik. Apart from that i do not see Algol and Kilik in the same Tier as Hilde, but thats another story.

Post Block Punishment of course is a big issue in Soul Calibur, especially in a game with such unsafe Movelists. Sometimes when i see people playing against Cervantes i really dont know whether to laugh or cry. Sophitia can punish 80% of his USEFULL Moves, and thats a fact. Damn she even gets a 236236B:4 for a lot of blocked Moves. People just dont know how to punish properly imo.

In SC History there were always people who were representing Low Tiers, look at Hayate in SC2 with Yun or Keev winning with Rock in the End of SC3 against Kayanes X. These were characters who had much bigger problems than Cassy. Cassy has not much Range and is linear, right. But apart from that she is almost flawless, making her a very good character.

I mean look at Aris or JTO. JTO plays the most boring Cassy ive ever seen, but he is still winning with her, just with some Pokes, incredible defense and Throws, thats what i remember from the last vids. I wanna see people "Step Guarding" against Aris and JTO, thats nothing you cant adapt too.

You cant judge a character with statements like "just Step G or use retreat Moves", that is pure Theory Fighting,otherwise this would fit into the majority of the cast, since a lot of Moves do not have proper tracking.

The best what you can do is a flipchart or just concentrate on S and A just like you.

For me it would be:

S+: Hilde
S: Algol, Kilik
A: Voldo, Sophitia, Cassandra, Amy, X, Asta, Cervantes, Setsuka

Voldo maybe in S, im not quite sure about that. Every Character as some minor flaws in A but compete very very well.

Well everybody agrees on the Three Tops, for the rest we will never find the answer i guess :)
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Psot block punishment is only a problem to those who can punish pretty much anything. (Ex. Setsuka WS 3 a:B)

You really won't see people punishing on block outside of a few key lows that may get block or a gamble on a move with a real big reward.

If someone is getting punished post block more often than not. No offense but they suck because they are stupid for playing unsafe.

For example if i'm playing Sophitia due you honestly think i'm gonna do a move that gives her room to punish me with her 236B or 236236B. Seriously it would just be retarded to do so.

You also have to consider player skill. JTO and Aris are simply just better than most. I would gamble that really high level players can give anyone a problem with any character. It still does not change why such and such character is better than the other.

Though Hilde is an exception. I had no choice but to pick her broken ass up to learn her and keep her as a pocket character just in case I need her (Ex. Evo imagine everyone choosing her). Outside of that I stick to the character I favor the most out of everygame no matter where they are on the tier list.

However I will not be blind to the fact that a character like Hilde does all the work more or less than the actual user does.

I already feel guilty for using her because i'm thrashing people left and right with her with the least amount of effort I have ever used a character in any fighting game.

Example:

Here goes Ramon from my New York Crew kicking ass and putting in so much work but then when Hilde pops up everything is so much more difficult because of instant ringouts.




Those are casuals but please understand my point.
 
@ SU

Your Vid of KDZ vs. Ramon is a perfect example of people not beeing able to punish. No offense, i know it sound arrogant, but if KDZ would play his Cervantes like this against me, i could win ONLY with some pokes and punishing. And i know KDZ is a good player.

2:40: KDZ does 66A, free 236B:4 from Mid and closerange.
2.51: Blocked 2A+B was not punished by Sophie.
2:54: Blocked 3B was not punished by Sophitia.
3.02: KDZ starts the Round with 66B, unsafe against Sophie, but he hit, so everything is cool.
3:47: Blocked 2A+B was not punished by Sophie.
3:52: Blocked 3B was not punished by Sophitia.
3:55: Blocked iGDR only punished with 236B. Thats a free 90 Damage 66B~236236B.
4.05: Blocked aB slide NOT punished again. Free 80 Damage with 236236B:4.
4.13: Blocked 3B not punshed with 236B.
4.17: Blocked aB slide NOT punished again. Free 80 Damage with 236236B:4.
4.20: Blocked 3B not punshed with 236B.
4:57: Blocked 3B not punshed with 236B.

Can you please tell me again that Post-Block-Punishing is not a big deal? "If someone is getting punished post block more often than not. No offense but they suck because they are stupid for playing unsafe."

Well thats EXACTLY how KDZ was playing, i just wanna show that some Chars have to play unsafe in order to win, but sorry to say that, but i really cant take a Sophie serious that has no idea of Frame Data.

If you consider this as High-Level-Play, how can you say Punishing is not a big deal?

And before you ask, yes i would punish every single unsafe Move he throws out and he LOST the Match although Ramon didnt punish shit with her.
 
Docvizzo:

No you don't sound arrogant at all. Your completely right.

Though that says alot about the player then.

I know for a fact that I sure as hell won't be playing unsafe vs. her with maybe a gamble every now and again.

That's why punishing would never really be the main thing.
 
Something-Unique said:
That's why punishing would never really be the main thing.
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I absolutely have to disagree.

Sophitias ABILITY to punish every shit Cervantes has dramatically changes the Matchup. So even if you say, "im gonna play safe and wont get punished" you limit yourself to a tiny amount of moves and thats why a Character like Sophie, Cass or Setsuka can be such a pain in the ass.

Do you know what im tyring to say? You say punishing wont be a problem because you just wont spam unsafe stuff, but when you come to this point you already limited yourself to Pokes and Throws, cause everything else Cervantes has is 236B punishable.

Of course im not going to spam 2A+B and 3B against her, but the ability to punish all that stuff is what you have to consider when you talk about block-punishment, cause that is what makes YOU change your Game completely. Playing against Sophitia and playing against a Non-Punisher are 2 different worlds, just because of Block-Punishing.

Of course as a Kilik/Hilde Player this is nothing YOU have to worry about too much :)
 
Docvizzo:

It's funny u say that though as that was part of the reason I believe Sophie is up there as she strips you down to the basics for fear of punishment and whiff.

Though with some characters I can see how she could punish almost everything. At some point after realizing that your getting punished so hard you will rely to restrict and work with certain options completely phasing out getting punished on block outside of certain moves.

I just don't see how any competent person will not realize that. That's where Sophie then comes into problems with no mixup to make the player duck the match becomes much harder as spacing and trying to get whiffs and throws in become the standard.

Don't forget though that I did place Sophie up there.

Cass on the other hand will continue to disagree as she provides no problem for A and B tier.

You could actually gamble alot more possibly even risking whiffs because of her short range.
 
docvizzo said:
I mean look at Aris or JTO. JTO plays the most boring Cassy ive ever seen, but he is still winning with her, just with some Pokes, incredible defense and Throws, thats what i remember from the last vids. I wanna see people "Step Guarding" against Aris and JTO, thats nothing you cant adapt too.
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I wonder about that! =)

You seem to think this is some parlor trick strategy. Yeah, they can adapt, but is it enough to equal an equally skilled player who is also adapting, while using step G strategy with a better character (or at least better for the matchup)? I think not.
 
Something-Unique said:
Step left steps almost everything in Siggys movelist and me referring to the situation above was to show you how you can take away his frame traps making the match more difficult for him because you take away his frame trap advantage and now it becomes mind games. The advantage is gone.

So for example the Kilik player can now just use 6AAA to destroy every choice he can make or Step A+B.

If you did not step in this situation to make your opponent wonder about his choices the frame trap K would be in your face everytime.
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It may not be the point, but again i will give you my knowcledge about this situation.

1. Siegfried is not full stepable at Left. Especially in SCH, wich the best solution is stepguarding RIGHT, if you steguarding left you will not be able to protect the SCH A.

2. Siegfried WS B and 3B is not 100% punishable by anything that are slower than i11. That's a problem from frame data, i know that you can punish a blocked 3[B.] with 6AAA, the problem is human reconnaissance/confirmation of a blocked 3[B.], if Siegfried alternate WS B and 3B correctly you can't react to the 2 move corectly. You will eat sometimes SCH K when you want to 6AAA cause you will confuse WS B with 3B.

My point is that even if you know how to reduce the REWARD of a mindgame, you take the advantage, but you becomes predictible if you repeat your action, even if this one complete most situation, if it has at least one weakness, it can be adapted by your opponnent, the second point is that there is still a lot's things that player can develop with their character, even Rock can greatly kill you in this game, especially if the developpement of the character is WAYYY far than you think, you will understand nothing.

What i want to say exactly, is that, it's very hard to determin the limit of a developpement of character, and therefore, his real potentiel. The only factor that change beetween character and makes tier list right, is the effort you have to put in to reach this developpement. You don't need to develop Sophitia basic game, while you have to improve a lot's Maxi's game.

We can say, that tier list is for lazy guyz, P1 lazy guy take TOP TIER, P2 lazy guy take LOW TIER = P1 WIN.

In reality, you can theorical say that one character has better RISK/REWARD than an other, but not mention that the other character can developp a lot's of attacking/defensive "phase", that will greatly decrease the efficience of the first character to solve all the problem all the time.
 
I have been thinking about this list long and hard and think I have come to a conclusion. What do you guys think

S: Hilde, Algol
A: Kilik, Amy, Voldo, Setsuka, Cass
B: Soph, Yoshi, Cervy, Taki, X, Ivy, Asta, Sieg, Mitsu,
C: Lizard, NM, Yun, Raph, Apprentice
D: Tira, Maxi, Rock, Zas, Vader, Talim,
E: Mina, Yoda

S:Hilde Algol have everything

Kilik :solid pokes, great keepout game, pretty safe and Azura dance.
Amy: solid lows, great footspeed, amazing speed, Great mixups. No step killer from range keeps her from the very top.
Voldo: So confusing, great damage, good Auto GI’s, vulnerable to step.
Setsuka: Great punishment, very safe, good speed, solid all around just not as good as Amy or Voldo
Cass: Great Damage for a fast Character, linear but has the tools if played safe. Good throws, great ringouts, good punishment. Lack of good lows.

Soph: no real mixup games, has to capitalize on opponents mistakes, but when apponent makes a mistake no one punishes better.
Yoshi: Solid mixups, good unblockables, good speed, susceptible to step.
Cervy: great damage, very fast, good SG damage, solid 1k leads to great mixups, very unsafe keeps him from being top.
Taki: SPEED SPEED SPEED. Fastest punisher in the game. Low damage, short range.
X: Good speed, very evasive, good all around character that is solid at everything but excels at nothing.
Ivy: Good Damage, good mixups, best throw game around. Not very safe.
Asta: Great damage, gives bad matchups for some Characters, Great Throw Game, very unsafe
Sieg: Great Stance Game, Great Range Game, Good damage, poor normals outside of stance, very big risk reward character.
Mitsu: Good speed, good punishment, good step killers, not very safe, doesn’t really create any bad matchups for other characters.

Lizard: Solid mids, good damage, great crawl stance mixups, no really good lows outside of stance. Has a hard time closing on range characters.
NM: GREAT Guard Break GAME. Good damage. AMAZING RINGOUT GAME. Very unsafe.
Yun: Good mixups from CR stance, solid Soul Gauge Damage, good speed, lack of good step killing normal mids, takes too many risks to be top.
Raph: SPEED, damage is good, good mixups, VERY STEPABLE
Apprentice: good damage, speed and force special game. Great throw break game. Few good lows, linear, good moves use force guage.

Tira: Good mixups and SG damage. Unsafe and week as far as overall damage goes. Best moves take life off of her. Changing to Gloomy can be random at times.
Maxi: Good stance game, ok damage. WAY TO MUCH RISK to do any damage.
Rock: Great throw game and wakeups, great damage, slow and very risky to get the damage.
Zas: Good mixups, solid damage, VERY UNSAFE.
Vader: Good damage, Good UB, Unsafe, Slow, Linear

Mina: Unsafe, linear, small set of good moves makes her predictable, Good SG Damage.
Yoda: Creates matchup problems for some Characters because of height. small SG, Weak, Slow , no range.
 
filldoh said:
Lizard: Solid mids, good damage, great crawl stance mixups, no really good lows outside of stance. Has a hard time closing on range characters.
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liz actually plays a pretty decent range game. if opponent wants to stay outside, let them.
 
fildoh: first learn the game a little than post a list, if you do it the other way you'll only get laughed at.

Hayate: Tier lists are not for lazy people, even if we speak in your terms if two determinated persons take different characters and will be putting same amount of effort into it one character will end up better.
some people do tier lists to evaluate theoretical character strengths other to see which characters are easier/better to win with. Easier or stronger characters leave less space for mistakes. I know what you talk about when sometimes impossible matchup turns into an easy one after a lot of research and effort. Or that a "low tiers" can still win a tournament even in a greatly unbalanced game like SC3. This is truth in some cases, and false in other. Person's ability to invest time and determination and research matter greatly. But psychological pressure and ability to adapt, ability to change your game to read your opponent and to be unpredictable to him are all more important and the person with a "better" character will fell less pressure, he will have more time to take decision in a fast paced or critical match and that will win him a game. I know its not necessarily contradictional to what you posted, but in strongly disagree on "tiers are for lazy people". Tiers determine better characters even if sc4 seem pretty well balanced
 
docvizzo said:
Epic fail ;)
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Typo that was supposed to say good punishment but I was typing this so fast and cutting and pasting that I goofed, in hindsite that does look pretty stupid. Cervy doesnt have do Good SC Damage.

KAB against ranged players like a good Kilik, hilde, or Sieg is what I was talking about. That came from Bigboi when he was at the last tournament I was at he said that was one of Lizy weaknesses. That is why I put it there.

Belial I know the game well, I throw tournaments every couple of months and play a lot of good players from ATL, North and South Carolina. This is just my oppinion after the matches I have played and the ones I have watched of the weaknesses of the Character list. I didnt say it was written in stone for me but I dont think it is that far off either.
 
filldoh said:
NM: GREAT Guard Break GAME. Good damage. AMAZING RINGOUT GAME. Very unsafe.
Vader: Good damage, Good UB, Unsafe, Slow, Linear
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what is a "guard break game"? guard break is just a visual effect, it really has little practical value. for example, nm's agA is a guard break but neutral on block, sieg's agA is not a gaurd break but is + on block. I'm just saying the notion of "guard break" is rather worthless, it's the moves that matter not the guard break property

NM CF game is not really viable if that's what you mean. he COULD CF you, it's POSSIBLE, but it will be rare, or else he'll be giving up so much guaranteed damage to do it that he will lose overall effectiveness. nightmare is only as unsafe as the player decides for him to be and how unsafe he is forced to play vs a given character. normally people talk about being forced to play safe, but you can also be forced to play unsafe. safety is a factor but it's important to realize that he can be played quite safe as well, while still doing good damage

Vader on the other hand is good at CF though he's a bit of a one trick pony about it (4B). I'm not totally sure about his anti step ability but 4AA being 100% safe on guard and doing almost 40 damage on normal hit (though it will normally hit as CH) is rather silly I think. first hit only tracks one side, AA is needed to track the other side. He has some other anti step moves that can go to combos but I'm forgetful of their exact properties. Vader is another character who is only unsafe if you play him that way, he can be fairly strong even when played in a safe fashion. I think I rated him too low in my list putting him in D, he should probably be in C. I'd say his high damage and good range offset his slow interrupt speed enough to bump him up. The other thing is that he's a character who relies a lot on throws for mixup, but he's also got a good CF ability (which IMO less than half the characters possess). Lows are still awful though.
 
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