1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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Hudathan said:
Post Evo/Nationals opinion.

Top: Algol, Hilde, Voldo

High: Amy, Kilik, Sets

Upper-Mid: Sisters, Yoshi, Asta, Mitsu, Ivy, Lizzy, X, Cervy

Mid: Vader, SK, Yun, Raph, Talim, NM, Maxi, Sieg, Taki

Low: Rock, Mina, Yoda, Zas, Tira
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I like this list. Because it looks like everyone is in the correct tier.

Just a few issues:

Just top tier, maybe Algol and Hilde should be switched.
Upper mid, I think Cervantes and Ivy should be higher up.
I think Tira's in the wrong list, I know she's bad, but I don't think it makes her the worst, maybe the Bottom of Mid, or the top of low should be Tira.
And I think Zas should above Yoda and MAYBE possibly Mina.


Other than that, I can't agree more.
 
Ring said:
Oofmatic believes that Vader is top tier.
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He also believes that Hilde isn't the best in the game. And that Vader has a better RO game. I'm definitely all for bumping him up to upper mid or high, though. He does have a crazy RO game, fast ranged moves that lead into it, and he's pretty safe on top of all this. Not to mention a really solid step, and good return off force GI.

As far as wanting to bump Zas up, on what grounds? Because Omega is really good at GIing every fucking move that's thrown at him? His insane reaction time is not a reflection on Zas as a character. If you really want to take a look, go watch the vids to see how many unsafe moves went unpunished. When you look at Vader and Oofmatic, he's a good player but Vader has a lot of really solid tools, and can ring out in any direction. The character, as well as the player, are both solid. Omega is just a crazy GI machine, Zas is still garbage. If anything we should be bumping Talim down with him, not moving him up a spot.

Unless you're not looking to move him up a tier, and just across individual spots. Because I'm pretty sure each individual tier is in no particular order.
 
Radar said:
I like this list. Because it looks like everyone is in the correct tier.

Just a few issues:

Just top tier, maybe Algol and Hilde should be switched.
Upper mid, I think Cervantes and Ivy should be higher up.
I think Tira's in the wrong list, I know she's bad, but I don't think it makes her the worst, maybe the Bottom of Mid, or the top of low should be Tira.
And I think Zas should above Yoda and MAYBE possibly Mina.


Other than that, I can't agree more.
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Honestly this game could be broken down into many sub-tiers if we wanted to nitpick and create a system where every character is ranked top down according to their 'value'. I would say the community has a good handle on where every character belongs and would only argue over small differences in placement.
 
So why is it that everyone concludes now that Hilde and Algol are top tier. Hilde Doom combo is really that good that it brought her from low tier to top just like that? And Isn't Algol a bit on the slow side.

Mitsurugi seems so perfect, he has quick stun moves(B6, 3a), retreat and attack moves(4b 6 7 or 8 A+B), strong punishers(B4, 22A+B). Half moon death unblockable that tracks( 214B that in after a stun its devastating) Great low attacks( 1a and 2KB,, 2KB) . that fact he has 2KB alone, a low knock down move that is that fast with a decent range and can set up his wake up guessing game after should make him high tier right there. It is near impossible to block on reaction so only way an opponent could dodge it is by guessing right. to top that all off,, his speed is good.

Although his important moves can be unsafe, same can be said of Algol
 
Dam those charge attacks dam them to hell. Yes they are + frame on block. Not much question on Hilde I've seen pro Hildes play(RTD). Algol is a Mid tier character without bubbles,,, the bubbles really good enough to make him top though? Seems they can be good for impeding your opponents movement, especially the slow moving variety. He can also take off nearly half the healthbar with a low starting combo( 11A, 2A+B, aB, 11B) with variations of it mixed in with other moves. Not disputing his greatness. But more questioning as to why Mitsurugi is only uppermid and not high or top. He is easily as good as Amy and setsuka for those reasons I listed IMO

Also a few months ago Kilik was argued as being Mid tier,,, now high,, what happened
 
nah algols still good without bubbles

hes really safe and has really good damage

mistsu is unsafe

and kinda step able
 
This is what's up

Top: Algol, Hilde, Amy

High: Kilik, Voldo, Ivy, Sets, Asta

Upper-Mid: Sisters, Yoshi, Mitsu, Sieg, Lizzy, X, Cervy

Mid: Vader, SK, Yun, Raph, Zas, NM, Maxi, Taki

Low: Rock, Mina, Yoda, Talim, Tira
 
^^ I agree with those tiers. Not the exact order, but I like the groupings. I've been thinking Amy was top 3 for a while now.
 
i know his frames

his good moves are all safeish

BB,2B+K,AA,6AA,6K(K)

all he needs along with bubbles honestly............

mitsu isnt high............ just cause you cant punish him online doesnt mean hes high...........

hes kinda linear and unsafe

he relies alot on people not being able to read his mix ups...........

algol has %95 combos from a -14 move

the risk reward is so high in his favor
 
KingAce said:
This is what's up

Top: Algol, Hilde, Amy

High: Kilik, Voldo, Ivy, Sets, Asta

Upper-Mid: Sisters, Yoshi, Mitsu, Sieg, Lizzy, X, Cervy

Mid: Vader, SK, Yun, Raph, Zas, NM, Maxi, Taki

Low: Rock, Mina, Yoda, Talim, Tira
Click to expand...
Vader is better than everybody in your "upper-mid" category minus Cervantes
 
Bubbles said:
i know his frames

his good moves are all safeish

BB,2B+K,AA,6AA,6K(K)

all he needs along with bubbles honestly............

mitsu isnt high............ just cause you cant punish him online doesnt mean hes high...........

hes kinda linear and unsafe

he relies alot on people not being able to read his mix ups...........

algol has %95 combos from a -14 move

the risk reward is so high in his favor
Click to expand...


to call Algol safe and mitsu unsafe is real stretch. Anyways not saying he is as good as Algol, but I think both him and Ivy belong in the high tier. It is however a minor discrepancy.


I wondering more now about Kilik, I heard for a long time he was Mid Tier,,, now people saying high. What happened, is it that asura dance?
 
Here's what I think.

Top: Hilde, Algol,

High: Kilik, Voldo, Amy

Upper-Mid: Astaroth, Cassandra, Yoshi, Sophitia, Vader, Ivy, Lizardman , Setsuka, Xianghua,

Mid: Mitsurugi, Apprentice, Cervantes, Taki, Yun, Siegfried, Raph, Tira, Nightmare, Maxi,

Low: Zasalamel, Rock, Yoda, Talim, Mina
 
Just out of curiosity for this thread.


Where's the proof for people having Algol at the top. Are we even considering his matchups or is he just up there because people find him annoying like Hilde.

Which also begs the question why is Hilde still #1 on people's list. Are we even considering matchups or is she just up there because people find her annoying like Algol.

How much results/proof do people need to accept that Hilde the non-winner/top placer is not #1.

I think me and KDZ single handedly proved she is not god at Nats and Evo.

For those who did not see the fight with me and Ceirnian I just wanted to say for what its worth to a tier list
I had to fight her on the best smallest stages she could possibly have and still no overall win.

Hilde also has 2 bad matchups and more than 3 5/5's off the top of my head to accomodate her.

Depending on who you talk to with someone with Algol experience as a player or has played against multiple Algol's they can tell u Algol has a number of bad matchups or just simply overrated.

Just saying. There was also alot of testing done at Evo and Nats etc. and considerations by top players. The best or top three best of each character.

So why Algol and Hilde at the top again and perhaps even more importantly why are they in there own tier is even more important.
 
I can honestly tell you where I think Algol belongs on that list, but nobody would believe me so I just keep that opinion to myself.

Hilde on the other hand deserves to be #1 if only for the doom combo itself. Tier lists are all theory fighter to begin with so unless there is a character that is head over heels above the competition *cough Hilde cough* it's hard to make an accurate list with everyone in the right places. Now I'm not saying Hilde is unbeatable because we all know that isn't true (EVO and Nats anyone?), but she can honestly beat you with one mistake made at the wrong part of the stage. So that by itself should put her ahead of everyone.

Regardless of what Oof says I don't think that Vader is top tier. I think Vader is good, but not top. He's a character that has a lot of upside, but people still haven't found out what moves are duckable, stepable and punishable. So Oof gets away with a lot of stuff I feel that he shouldn't.

For the most part though I think the list is coming along nice. Granted the game has been out for quite some time now and there isn't a solid list.
 
Algol and Hilde should certainly not be in some S tier above everyone else in the game, but they should definitely be considered 'Top' because someone has to occupy that position in a ranking system, they're just not the only ones who should be up there. Just because they have a couple of bad match ups and a few more even ones doesn't change the fact that they are very good characters over all. If we want to nitpick then we shouldn't even have a tier list because technically every character in the game can be counter picked at some point. It takes top players to outplay solid Hilde's, and if someone like RTD continued to apply themselves to Algol we would see him dominate more as well. These characters have a lot going for them and a tier list should simply reflect their potentials imho.
 
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