1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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dittO said:
I don't know If you're an Ivy player or not, or If you have faced a lot of Ivys...but I couldn't agree more with the character overview that you posted above.

100% CORRECT

I'd also like to hear your general opinion about other characters as well.
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I'm not an Ivy player but I researched her a lot cause she annoys me cause her potential is always kinda hidden to me lol. But I noticed this when I watch Ivy players play, when people finally get in if she messes up the guess to get them out or score a knock down she usually struggles.

In general tho, if Ivy isn't keeping you out successfully or hitting you with 9b(? ? ?), Sweep (stance dependent I believe), or just chipping you successively then she is most likely losing. She just doesn't have that come back factor without throws cause she doesn't have big damage like that. If one is playing defensive 22k isn't hitting nobody.

I could be wrong but that's just my opinion on her in general.
 
NinjaCW said:
I'm not an Ivy player but I researched her a lot cause she annoys me cause her potential is always kinda hidden to me lol. But I noticed this when I watch Ivy players play, when people finally get in if she messes up the guess to get them out or score a knock down she usually struggles.

In general tho, if Ivy isn't keeping you out successfully or hitting you with 9b(? ? ?), Sweep (stance dependent I believe), or just chipping you successively then she is most likely losing. She just doesn't have that come back factor without throws cause she doesn't have big damage like that. If one is playing defensive 22k isn't hitting nobody.

I could be wrong but that's just my opinion on her in general.
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She has SW FC 3B and good soul guage pressure as well...


Anyway here is what I think are top 6:

1. Amy

2. Hilde

3. Voldo

4. Kilik

5. Cass

6. Ivy
 
Nofacekill3r said:
She has SW FC 3B and good soul guage pressure as well...


Anyway here is what I think are top 6:

1. Amy

2. Hilde

3. Voldo

4. Kilik

5. Cass

6. Ivy
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Dude I don't care what Thuggish does with Amy, she's just not a #1 character. Hilde is because of her potential once players mature with her. Voldo, Kilik, and Cass I would agree with. I would definitely put in Astaroth in there as he has answers for everything. I still don't see how you guys don't think Astaroth is a top character?
 
NinjaCW said:
I would definitely put in Astaroth in there as he has answers for everything. I still don't see how you guys don't think Astaroth is a top character?
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IMHO, I believe Astaroth can do good against most of the cast, however, his tools are quite risky, and the penalty is usually free damage, especally against those mentioned one post above here. With the other "top 6 characters," sure they have to work and risk to get damage, but at the same time, they have safer tools, especially against Asta. With Asta, you have to be in position to guess right, and guessing right/wrong 4 to 6 times could give/lose him the round. If folks continue to play this game, Asta will have a harder time winning, and from what I saw people doing against Hilde in the Nats' stream, it shouldn't take long to put it together against him. As much as I would want to debate this, I would love to hear what the tournament players have to say about it.
 
Kilik vs Asta - Literally all he has is 66b because that's his best (almost) tracking move. Other than that he has his lows but he's pretty limited vs Asta. After every poke he has to keep you in check with 66b. When Kilik does 214 Astaroth rapes Kiliks lifebar with guessing with that move because if he steps the vert it's a free 22b[4] which is damn near 50% compared to Kilik's like minor damage. Astaroth also gets to do lows all day since Kilik can't punish them. Asura is virtually gone from the fight because of JF A throw

Asta vs Hilde - Harder for her to combo and when she burns a C3A she has to deal with his stupid throw game. He has great lows that can catch her and bull rush is hard for her to step which makes it risky for her to step (especially with her back to the edge). Her lows aren't nothing to fear but Astaroth has decent lows, mids, and throws which to me is brutal in a game that revolves around close combat.

Asta vs Amy - This fight is STRICTLY determined by how many times Amy can guess right when she's up close. Any time she pokes and it doesn't hit she's stuck next to him and all of his options take about 40-50% unless it's a quick 4b or 6k and then it can range from 20-30%. And if she wants to try to mash him out he has bullrush and 6b. Bullrush knocksdown and 6b will get him a lot of damage on counter hit. So basically she would have to guess right about 10-12 times (which is really possible with her and that low) but Astaroth will guess right 3 times and she can possibly die.
 
NinjaCW said:
Dude I don't care what Thuggish does with Amy, she's just not a #1 character. Hilde is because of her potential once players mature with her. Voldo, Kilik, and Cass I would agree with. I would definitely put in Astaroth in there as he has answers for everything. I still don't see how you guys don't think Astaroth is a top character?
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I thought Amy was #1 before I even went to evo, but thanks for trying to read my mind.
 
KingAce said:
Remove Cass and add Asta then you got it.
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No. Add him yes, but i don't think he's going to be higher than her. She has more tools to apply mindgames, in which don't require throws. But yes, i still think he's up there because he can give some of the higher tiers trouble.

i'm not saying he's the best, but for some reason, some characters are just plain flat out counter-picks to other characters...And i'd rather have that, then to have impossible tiers like how it was in part 3. (ok maybe not impossible, but you get the idea)

EDIT: my tier list (opinion, so don't jump down my throat about it. I'm also applying the SG game factor and the ease of character to this list, just in case you're wondering why some characters are where they are)

Top:
Hilde - One whiff...'nuff said (i'm on the ban bandwagon...lol)
Voldo - Solid offense, nice SG pressure, enough to cover him being linear
Kilik - Solid SG pressure, Annoying WR B(lol), Decent dmg on CH combos, asura = dumb
Amy - Punishes alot but makes up for lack to dmg. Solid SG pressue and Defense, Great Okizeme wake-up

High:
Cervy - Hard punisher, makes up for being punished for moves that doesn't look to be punishable.
Ivy - Solid SG game, Solid damage. Really, there isn't too much more info on her. I beleve she lacks the ability to punish other characters
Setsuka - Safe, solid SG pressure, great damage, however, devastating combos require precise execution, thus making the character not as easy as the top tier characters

Upper-mid:
Asta - Devastating mix-up game, heavily dependant on throws. 6K = great move, but shoudnt be punished as hard as some characters gets off of him.
Cass - Solid offense and punishing game, lack SG pressure, but can make up for mixup game.
X - can apply pressure to SG game, but isn't recommended. Basic mixups are best for her.
Yoshi - Can be damaging, but unsafe. Ok SG pressure game, but can combo for big dmg quickly if possible.
Lizzy - Hurts SG the best in this grp of individuals, lack of damge can hinder the character.
Mitsu (at best) - best 50/50 (imho) in the game, lack of SG pressure and defense can make him a challanging char.

Mid:
Seigfried - can hurt the SG game, but is very punishable from his best moves.
Taki - fast, but once you figure her out, it is a managable fight.
Raphael - linear, can apply decent SG prssure
Yunsung - one of the best SG offenses in this grp, however, like taki, once you figure the char out, the fight is managble
Sophie - Can punish hard, just not as hard as Cass.

Other: From what i hear, they all suck. No knowledge of the characters to be honest.
Nightmare
Maxi
Zas
Rock
Tira
Talim
Mina
 
D_Matt_Ma said:
Just because Rock/Tira weren't played, doesn't make them low tier. They are officially not bottom tier until it is proven they really do suck... -_-
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I agree with Matt for the first part. Rock is most probably not low tier. May be mid or low-mid but not low. He's got a powerful pressure game (once you get the opponent on the ground and they're trying to guess what Rock's doing while trying to get up).

Also, it will be hard to prove that Rock sucks since there still are several strategies to polish up or create. Same for Talim (probably other low tiers too...I wouldn't know since I don't play others x3). So just because Rock/Talim ends up bottom in a tournament doesn't prove they're low tier (at least not for now).
 
Big Ups to Voldo. Yes he is for sure Top 3. But who are the other two?!

Algol/Hilde And Why they are not broken.

Algol has a bubble Sheild. Each bubble does 10 dmg. You have 240 HP. Do the math.

Hilde has 3 Main charges that give RO combo. C3A. C3B. C2BB (less). I takes her At least 3? Seconds to charge. Thats how long your opponent wont use A/Bs and cant break Bs normally. Thats how long this opponent needs after using any A/B move, where you know have a good idea of what they are charging, and therefore what moves/properties no access to. Unless of course they let go of the chagre. A little more Math, but you can keep full track of what you're opponent is thinking/going for. Which should be said of all characters.

Amy...oh Amy. She's great because you cant really do anything to her when she does stuff. So basically you have to guess right, and make sure you stuff lands. If you keep her out of range, shes loses ALOT of her key mixups. And leaves her open after whiffed moves. and jus 9B after 3B. She's still annoying and easily a Top 6? Character.

Kilik...is really good. Not top though. Period.

Ivy and Sophie are top 3. Period. They control the game. Simple.
Top
1. Ivy
2. Voldo
3. Soph

4-6 Amy...Hilde...Algol...if you suck.
if your smart
High-Mid
4. Setsuka
5. Yoshi
6-17. Kilik, Mitsu, Cass, Cervy, Hilde, Amy....thro them in for a Top 11

Mid
Tira, Sieg, NM,Taki X Asta Round out my Top 17. You win with these guys, you just have to do more work than the opponent usually.

Zas, Maxi, Rock, Liz, Raph, Yun, Mina Talim are the "Bottom Dwellers". They can win. You just have to do more work.

SW/Algol dont count.

Thats as precise as you get. As you can see. Namco has a thing for Big breast and/or small clothing.
 
Yeah, imo top 5 looks like this (random order)

1. Hilde
2. Algol
3. Voldo
4. Amy
5. Kilik

So nothing different. Im still unsure about some characters though
 
Post Evo/Nationals opinion.

Top: Algol, Hilde, Voldo

High: Amy, Kilik, Sets

Upper-Mid: Sisters, Yoshi, Asta, Mitsu, Ivy, Lizzy, X, Cervy

Mid: Vader, SK, Yun, Raph, Talim, NM, Maxi, Sieg, Taki

Low: Rock, Mina, Yoda, Zas, Tira
 
Hudathan said:
Post Evo/Nationals opinion.

Top: Algol, Hilde, Voldo

High: Amy, Kilik, Sets

Upper-Mid: Sisters, Yoshi, Asta, Mitsu, Ivy, Lizzy, X, Cervy

Mid: Vader, SK, Yun, Raph, Talim, NM, Maxi, Sieg, Taki

Low: Rock, Mina, Yoda, Zas, Tira
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List makes sense except I'd put Vader up to upper-mid, he's much better than everone else in the tier he is in and he's not much worse as the ones in the tier above him. Hell, I'd say he's around as good as half of them.
 
BoringRyu said:
List makes sense except I'd put Vader up to upper-mid, he's much better than everone else in the tier he is in and he's not much worse as the ones in the tier above him. Hell, I'd say he's around as good as half of them.
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Vader has a small number of dependable moves and relies a lot on his meter. I would like to hear from people like Oof who play him regularly. I don't see why he is necessarily better than say SK.
 
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