Zwei pessimist discussion

But what does it get done? nothing. Crying about the character in productive threads doesn't actually get anything completed.
At what point do you call it crying? Zwei has many weaknesses. We can't be expected to sweep them under the rug and call ourselves objective. The idea I had in my head when I've been posting about Zwei is any of my misconceptions about the character and his moves would be exposed and corrected.

I don't think we've found all the answers yet, but it's been incredibly frustrating to write up a post on why Zwei's overall game is weak then have someone come around and tell me Zwei is stronger than we think. But they've never adequately defended their position. They're either lying or are refusing to give us their secrets which is essentially a giant middle finger to the purpose of character SAs.


Anyway, I don't think we should discourage posting about what makes Zwei weak, but we should discourage shitty posts that don't provide any insight towards working around it. Complaining about complaining is useless. I get it. Something needs to be done, but please let's not make this a big deal. It's just more text I need to read that doesn't teach me about the character.

With that said, Sephalump, I respect you as a person and a player. I think you're trying to do a good job. My overall experience with the boards in general has been pretty frustrating and hostile lately. I feel like the quality of posts overall have just dropped significantly and this is hardly unique to the Zwei SA. I just think what you're addressing is a symptom, not the problem.

what i hate about Zwei is :
Most of my moves push the foe far away from me.
But my medium/range game blows.
why would i want to push astaroth , nightmare or siegfried away when their range attacks are cleary better.

So explain me the logic. You push the other player out of the dangerous zone.
And most of our moves don"t go forward and don't have any properties, except 4A ( TC ), 66B(A) ( TC ) and 66B+K (cross up but slow and huge recovery )
In my opinion, Zwei's most difficult match ups are definitely those that can zone him the hardest. Staying out for Zwei is easier than getting in. Once he's in he can keep his momentum and pressure through good reads.

I haven't played a good Sieg or Asta since the patch. The change to back dash G will definitely hurt. My solution to getting owned by 3B mix-ups, agA, and verts has been 33_99B. Sieg does have a decent horizontal mid (not talking about 3A), but I think he commits his hit box into your range when he does it. If you make reads correctly. It will be much harder for him to zone you.

Astaroth might be harder to deal with. 66B+K will get you out of certain mix-ups other characters couldn't get out of, but be smart about it. (66B+K can be 28B+Ged turns out lool) If 66B+K is blocked you can still expect to get punished pretty hard. The back dash G nerf makes it harder to dance around Asta's effective range, but there's a lot of stuff that gives 66BA on whiff. 33_99B might still be useful depending on what you're getting zoned with. I'd also consider getting the timing down for 6A+B against slow moves like full charge bull rush, 44(A), and 22B.

Also, instead of going for the 15 damage punish that they are expecting, you might want to try 214B. Some players just aren't conditioned to expect mix-ups when they anticipate a guaranteed punish. Also consider B+K BE after just guard, it's still something I'm experimenting with.
 
I never use B+K BE, not worth it. If Ein didn't get cancelled when you get interrupted, it'd be worth it. The only BE moves i even use are 4B BE and 1K BE. They're staples and really the only necessary BE moves. 33B BE would be useful since it's hit-confirmable, but it's unsafe and there's no way to combo with it.
 
I never use B+K BE, not worth it. If Ein didn't get cancelled when you get interrupted, it'd be worth it. The only BE moves i even use are 4B BE and 1K BE. They're staples and really the only necessary BE moves. 33B BE would be useful since it's hit-confirmable, but it's unsafe and there's no way to combo with it.
66BA B+K BE makes some nice opportunities. You're really missing out if you aren't using it. 33B BE really isn't that bad, the move has evasive properties. It TCs and TSs. You are pretty safe at tip range. If you are just throwing this out for its properties as a launcher you are using it wrong. I also believe you can 33B (A) and it will connect.
 
B+K BE is on of his best moves imho.
33B, (A) only works on a few characters and even then only from a certain collection of angels. =\
 
I don't know if it's because I don't play very seriously, but I've never really cared that Zwei has many weaknesses. I play him because I like his style and I think he looks awesome, and I would never drop him EVEN IF ALL OF HIS COMBOS ONLY MAXED TO 30 DAMAGE! I really don't see what everyone is complaining about... you picked this character, deal with it..

But maybe I'm just ignorant ;D
 
lol ZWEI so bad.

Didn't even see any at MLG or NorCal.

You: He's not bad. I do well with him.
Me: And you could do even better with a higher tier character.

You: Well, we just haven't figured him out yet. People are sleeping on him hard.
Me: The game has been out for several months now. How much longer are you going to say this?

You: Yeah, well... that's just like...your opinion, man!
Me: No, he's factually one of the worse characters in the game. Prove me otherwise and go win a Major with him.
 
lol ZWEI so bad.

Didn't even see any at MLG or NorCal.

You: He's not bad. I do well with him.
Me: And you could do even better with a higher tier character.

You: Well, we just haven't figured him out yet. People are sleeping on him hard.
Me: The game has been out for several months now. How much longer are you going to say this?

You: Yeah, well... that's just like...your opinion, man!
Me: No, he's factually one of the worse characters in the game. Prove me otherwise and go win a Major with him.
He's definitively bad. He takes more creativeness and knowledge to play with, yes, but he is nonetheless rock bottom tier. Way worse than Sieg which is why Sieg got nerfed and is still better than Zwei. He's so bad that character nerfs won't save him, his moveset is simply crap. That's why they didn't bother buffing him. (his buffs were minimal)
 
That's just negative -_-, although I guess this is a pessimist discussion. So what if he is low tier, it's definitely not impossible to win with him. Just look at people like MikeZ, who played a character that was s**t tier, he never won a single tournament, but he came close nearly every single time he attempted. He became quite famous among a lot of the fighting game community just because of that. Why can't you guys be more like that >:|
 
Pls remind me just who are you?

Or were you asking me? O_o . Do we need to be important members of the community to voice our negative opinions in a topic titled "pessimist discussion"?

Also, who else thinks that if ZWEI gets top 5 in a Major that we have a topic titled "ZWEI Optimist Discussion"? :D

That'll be the day!
 
I've come to believe that although Zwei is low tier, he doesn't have bad match-ups against a lot of the cast. Some characters give him some problems, and some flat out destroy him (Pyrrha), but most don't have great answers to the wolf.
 
History has shown that in some fighting games, the absolute piss poor characters skyrocket to top tier all based on very talented individuals figuring out how to properly use them. I dont know if this is the case for Zwei, but I can say the pessimists arent those talented ones to unlock the secrets.
Completely agree.
 
History has shown that in some fighting games, the absolute piss poor characters skyrocket to top tier all based on very talented individuals figuring out how to properly use them. I dont know if this is the case for Zwei, but I can say the pessimists arent those talented ones to unlock the secrets.
But that's not true. Anybody with enough knowledge can do good with a rock-bottom low tier character (like Zwei), but that doesn't make the character good. Where are tiers made? At high level play, where everyone is a "very talented individual". That's where playing Zwei properly is obsolete. There aren't any secrets to unlock.

Zwei is probably the hardest character to play strategic-wise because of such disadvantage more than his complexity. I'm fine with people saying you can do good with Zwei, and that he's capable of some cool possibilities, sure. But when you try to validate him out of the bottom tier is when you cross the line.
 
I don't know how high level play works on SCV, but there are definitely players who stand out from the professionals, namely Keev, I would call him a "Very Talented Individual".
 
But that's not true. Anybody with enough knowledge can do good with a rock-bottom low tier character (like Zwei), but that doesn't make the character good. Where are tiers made? At high level play, where everyone is a "very talented individual". That's where playing Zwei properly is obsolete. There aren't any secrets to unlock.

Zwei is probably the hardest character to play strategic-wise because of such disadvantage more than his complexity. I'm fine with people saying you can do good with Zwei, and that he's capable of some cool possibilities, sure. But when you try to validate him out of the bottom tier is when you cross the line.


So I thought about what your said, and I would have to say you are right. BUT! I disagree in saying that I am wrong. Different games have different requirements for top tier. And in some games, what I said turns out to be completely true. In Game A, if everyone says Character X sucks, but some one figured out the trick, then all of a sudden that trick starts winning EVO, what I say is true. But In Game B, if character Y sucks, but Mr. Talented comes along and wins EVO, but only for 10% of the people who play character Y, then what you say is true. I believe both cases are applicable.

For me personally I suck with Zwei. And Im not talented enough to be that shining star. So Im hoping that some one will show me how to play this character correctly. But just because I suck, and on paper Zwei sucks, doesnt mean there isnt some one who can be the one to show me how to do it correctly.

So if you think about it, my mind agrees with you. My heart hopes your wrong.
 
So I thought about what your said, and I would have to say you are right. BUT! I disagree in saying that I am wrong. Different games have different requirements for top tier. And in some games, what I said turns out to be completely true. In Game A, if everyone says Character X sucks, but some one figured out the trick, then all of a sudden that trick starts winning EVO, what I say is true. But In Game B, if character Y sucks, but Mr. Talented comes along and wins EVO, but only for 10% of the people who play character Y, then what you say is true. I believe both cases are applicable.

For me personally I suck with Zwei. And Im not talented enough to be that shining star. So Im hoping that some one will show me how to play this character correctly. But just because I suck, and on paper Zwei sucks, doesnt mean there isnt some one who can be the one to show me how to do it correctly.

So if you think about it, my mind agrees with you. My heart hopes your wrong.
Personally, i'm decent with Zwei if the opponent allows me to do combo's and use my meter. I have a lot of knowledge about Zwei, mainly when it comes to optimal combo's and meter usage. I just lack matchup knowledge or character knowledge in general. Once i gain that, i might just go back to Zwei and help develop his full potential, especially if he ends up getting significant buffs.
 
Personally, i'm decent with Zwei if the opponent allows me to do combo's and use my meter. I have a lot of knowledge about Zwei, mainly when it comes to optimal combo's and meter usage. I just lack matchup knowledge or character knowledge in general. Once i gain that, i might just go back to Zwei and help develop his full potential, especially if he ends up getting significant buffs.
Please do. I sure as hell need it. Some times I feel like bailing out to try a more popular character, but then reflect that I like Zwei's playstyle. I guess I can always have multiple characters.
 
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