1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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I guess I can see that... so would the 2B followup to B+G be unadvised because of better wakeup placement?

And hey now, other chars have some useful UBs... Taki, Asty and Amy come to mind... And like I said, neither of those moves is really useful for their UB properties (though hey, if'n you can get them, bully for you)... so does that really count? :P
 
Ravariel: AkazukinChaCha answered it perfectly for me. :)

But I was more directly comparing her to Cassandra.

You could argue that Cassandra's throw game is better since you can combo off of her 66B+G.

There are few characters that have better unblockables than Sophie anyway. The three that you listed and that's about it really.
 
Chacha: I totally agree with you on your theorem of Tier ranking. We should all try to see it in that way instead of our own opinions. I know everyone wants their character to be one of the top tier characters.
 
Cassandra was better than Sophie in part 3 and part 2. Why is Sophie all this sudden better? Cassandra can destroy your guard meter, stil has FC 1B (it's very easy to instantly do it, even online) her 236B is, and always will be, better (not to mention 236). So as far as punishment, Cassie wins this argument, not Sophie. Also, Cass can get 60 damage off of a very fast throw.

It's pretty much safe to say, as usual, sisters are top (or damn close). Yoshimitsu is super good, anybody disputing this needs to play a good Yoshi (please don't base any tier rankings of online, because nobody will take you seriously).

IMO, this is how I rank the chars

S: Yoshimitsu, Sisters, Amy, Cervantes, Voldo, Mitsurugi
A: Siegfried, Lizardman, Setsuka, X, Taki, Raph, Hilde, Algol, Ivy, Yun
B: Talim, Maxi, Kilik, Nightmare, Mina, Tira, Rock, Apprentice, Zas

Pretty much, I think at full ability, S class will dominate if played right. I think they have the tools (some tools too strong to combat) to win tourneys. I feel class A is right below them but are missing something. And yes, before you ask, I'm throwing in Apprentice and Rock in B category

Rock can destroy a guard meter. He has strong throws. If this were SC3, I'd say he can't win period. However, an aggressive Rock that throw whores and makes you block will be a problem for any player, don't care who you are or how good you think you are. Apprentice is the same thing. Yes, he depends on force but he can win w/out it. There is nothing SO BAD about Apprentice and Rock that they deserve their own category. I'll need a lot of convincing to jump on the silly bandwagon of people thinking Rock/Apprentice can't win tourneys.
 
It's totally bias of the type ChaCha correctly pointed out above, but Hilde still... frightens me. Yes, she has tracking problems and is thoroughly linear with most of her good range pokes, but her Charge moves are (I think) a rather untapped commodity. No other character in the Soul series has had moves that execute this way. It's a real adjustment for most people, me included. I think once players, skilled players, start really learning to exploit her Charges whilst maintaining a steady offense with the buttons they aren't charging, we are going to see some really amazing things from her. Also remember, level 1 Charge can be stored up almost instantly - I mean it feels like less than a second of hold time. For a blazingly fast juggle starter that works at astonishing range and has little recovery (for all that it isn't totally safe), that's not too danged bad. If the Charged A is at L3, that's pretty mean damage when successful. Even if the A isn't charged, she still has some limited juggles she can finish with. Really it's just tracking that limits her IMO.

I would also like to make the point that, while TRUE tiering is inevitably going to be based off in-person, totally lag-free matches, the online component shouldn't be discounted as well. People get together maybe 5 or so times a year to compete in tournaments for fighting games, depending on the part of the country you're in and how much you can spend on travel. People are playing their 360s and PS3s online every day and night, including right now as I'm typing this. The game is going to get vastly, vastly more play in this format than in tournament-style fashion, and IMO we need to recognize that.
 
DreamingSky said:
People are playing their 360s and PS3s online every day and night, including right now as I'm typing this. The game is going to get vastly, vastly more play in this format than in tournament-style fashion, and IMO we need to recognize that.
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That will never happen. Otherwise, chars like Asta will be top tier. You can never, ever based chars off of games with lag. The top players (and the community should as a whole) recognize offline tourney chars for tiers only. I have never ever taken anybody I have played online seriously, I don't care what the connection. Nothing relpaces the speed and accuracy of offline play, and if online does, it won't be for years.
 
I don't think SC4 should have an S tier. S doesn't simply mean "higher than A", it means "totally unbalanced" and basically equates to auto win. Akuma was the only S tier in SF2, for example.
 
KoshTheKoala said:
I don't think SC4 should have an S tier. S doesn't simply mean "higher than A", it means "totally unbalanced" and basically equates to auto win. Akuma was the only S tier in SF2, for example.
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VF5 has S categories. None of those chars are Akuma either? I think S just means elite (at least that's how I've seen most people take it). If enough people think I'm putting chars into some god category, I'll change the letters;)
 
Well you're welcome to do whatever you want with your tiers. You could name them S1 - S4, you could name them A, S, D, F, G, H, J, K, L... doesn't really matter.

But for the general fighting game community, S-tier is usually reserved for utterly broken characters. Ivy would be S-tier if you didn't ban her infinite, for example.

Sure VF5 may have S category, but SF3 3rd Strike, CvS2 and SSBM don't have S categories.
 
Hilde is actually quite a bitch to play with.

Shen Yuan, one of our local community's player, won 30-0 against a HK/Cand Mitsu player. THe drift is...Most of them are by ROs

Hilde has got superb RO combo...
 
Nori said:
Cassandra was better than Sophie in part 3 and part 2. Why is Sophie all this sudden better? Cassandra can destroy your guard meter, stil has FC 1B (it's very easy to instantly do it, even online) her 236B is, and always will be, better (not to mention 236). So as far as punishment, Cassie wins this argument, not Sophie. Also, Cass can get 60 damage off of a very fast throw.
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Cassandra's ability to crush your soul gauge pales in comparison to Sophie's. Try using Sophie's 4B+K a few times and you'll see what I mean. That shit is ridiculous.

Sophie can punish with 236B:4. Don't forget the JF hit she gets to add onto that. I really don't think Cassie's 236B is better. I do like her 236. It is debatable who has better punishment.

They both have great pokes, I just find Sophie's are slightly better. She has some nice, fast M,L strings that Cassie lacks like AK and 236236AA. I love both of their AA and BBs. I love Cassie's BK and FC 1B but I love Sophie's AK, KK, 3K, and 1K more.

I think Sophie is better but I am better with Cassie. But that's because I have a better feel with her and have played her more than Sophie. I just feel that Sophie can do anything that Cassie can do, only slightly better.
 
Nori said:
That will never happen. Otherwise, chars like Asta will be top tier. You can never, ever based chars off of games with lag. The top players (and the community should as a whole) recognize offline tourney chars for tiers only. I have never ever taken anybody I have played online seriously, I don't care what the connection. Nothing relpaces the speed and accuracy of offline play, and if online does, it won't be for years.
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I think I put the point in the wrong topic. Yes, for tournaments, you must consider only offline. But for actual realistic play, which the game gets pretty much 24/7 over Live and PSN, slightly different rules apply.

I asked about the Guard Break skill in Tactics, and there's been no response save someone who was polite enough to point out that most players here are basically not concerned with any of the SP modes. That's sort of my point really. There's tournament level, and then there is "casual" or "for fun" play. Tournament level play in the heyday of SF2 was total hogwash cheapshit, for example. Yes, there was incredible combo and trapping skill on display, but there was also merciless cheese and exploitation. From my experience, tournament play is basically "play the game as cheaply and exploitatively as possible." It has nothing to do with enjoyment, it's about winning by any means. Casual play is "let's explore the phase space and have fun." SP modes immensely deepen the phase space by introducing many new variables that can dramatically affect the way any given character plays. That, to me, is more fun - it's the same reason I love Armored Core. To try new stuff. To see how a new combination of parts works. All the powers and statistical bonuses in SC4 are the same way. And yes, I know there are probably insanely broken combos of characters with certain skills/stats just waiting to be found. If an SP tournament were ever held, it should be no problem to disbar them, as characters considered overpowered are disbarred from normal tourneys.

Bear in mind, I'm not insulting tournament players. I know the mentality and understand why it is the way it is. And, for the record, to my very limited experience, SC4 is a much less innately cheesy fighting game than some I could name. I still contend, respectfully, that while it could be argued tournament play is the epitome of skill and dedication, casual play can often be more enjoyable and varied, even among players of extreme skill (which I am not). If nothing else, the amount of work (visual design and play mechanics) that went into crafting the SP modes and all the character development options is prodigious. I think it's a shame to totally ignore it.

If a mod wishes to move this sub-discussion to another thread, I totally understand. It's not exactly on-topic. :-P
 
RedDjinn said:
Amy beats the sisters... yoshi probably does too... anyone that puts Lizzy, Asta, and Kilik in front of Yoshimitsu is insane.... or they haven't played a good yosh :)
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yeah you right!so i have to clarify this!the list is random!and is an early general list!

now that i have seen more from other characters i should change my list.so here it goes:

A:Sophitia,Ivy,Amy,Cassandra,Mitsurugi,Cervantes
B:Yoshimitsu,Taki,Lizardman,Kilik,Astaroth,Voldo,Siegfried
C:Setsuka(?),Raphael,Tira,Nightmare,Darth Vader,Hilde
D:Talim,Seong Mina,Zasalamel,Yun Seong,Maxi,Apprentice,Rock(?)

Rock is a mystery to me.i dont know for sure yet.
Taki is much greater than i thought.she maybe be in A rank too.
Ivy and Sophie are the best characters in the game!
Yoshi can be in A rank too.i dont know yet about Lizzy.
if Tira hasn't the random thing and the damage from Gloomy she probably be in more high rank.
im not sure about Setsuka.
Raphael also can be in B rank.(BB simply Rocks!)
 
Yoshi is so the champ of this game!! The fact that you can ring people out from two full character lengths with the 3A,B a:B+K juggle is so cheap hahahaha!! Not only do three basic launches kills you off of CH MCF (an i10 counter hit) but it'll ring you out too on some of the small rings right off the bat. Yoshi can win in this game with 2a:B set ups alone. He's got a few trickly traps even off of block for MCF. Not many characters have really good traps off of block this time around.

I'm trying to figure out where Asta belongs. The fact that you can kill someone with so few moves and he's guaranteed 90+ off of his 22_88B4 launcher have to be worth something. But...ASTA NEEDS TO DAMAGE THE SOUL GAUGE MORE!!!. When I'm fighting Voldo and he's taking my soulgauge way away faster than I'm taking his and we're trading many blocked hits, there's a problem.

Speaking of Voldo, he's got one of the best 50/50 games hands down this time around IMO.
 
Nori said:
That will never happen. Otherwise, chars like Asta will be top tier. You can never, ever based chars off of games with lag. The top players (and the community should as a whole) recognize offline tourney chars for tiers only. I have never ever taken anybody I have played online seriously, I don't care what the connection. Nothing relpaces the speed and accuracy of offline play, and if online does, it won't be for years.
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LoL I duno Nori our Yoshi match seemed pretty damn serious ! :) haha
 
Nori said:
VF5 has S categories. None of those chars are Akuma either? I think S just means elite (at least that's how I've seen most people take it). If enough people think I'm putting chars into some god category, I'll change the letters;)
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S is characters with broken hitboxes...Sophitia and Cassandra are at least a consensus here. It seems like we at least have established that the game does have two top tier characters across all formats (offline/online, noob/pro).

In terms of offline play, there's no comparison to online play. I don't think I could even write 2 sentences about the difference before breaking my keyboard in two pieces over my desk. Must...stop...now...
 
....This game's only been out for a month and you people are talking about fucking tiers....

Look, yes it's a good thing to know what characters are good and what tools do the have. But the moment people start talking about tiers with a games month long lifetime....well. That's absurd imho.

honestly, i don't have a tier list. Why? it's because i haven't been to a SC4 tournament. So i can't really say who's top or who sucks or whatever. If this game was like SC3...then yes, it would be easy to have a tier list already made out. It's different. I laughed @ the people who bitched about the apprentice being broken, and now you people are saying that he's shit tier. I cried laughing about you all wanted to instinctively wanted to ban Algol as soon as the game came out. Now for Taki and Raph, it's a mixture of "oh s/he sucks" or "s/he is good in this game" which is the kind of response that i would like to see.

I want to ask you all a question. To be real honest. To those of you that made "SHIT" tier or low-tier characters, how many of you actually took the time to play that character. I mean like tried and played that character for 1 week? I bet not one of you did. You probably gave up within 2 days. Honestly, i haven't done so either, but i haven't made a "shit-tier" list. Shit, i HAVE yet to still play Zas, NM, Yun-sung, Seon-mina, Talim, Cass, and Sophie.

Not trying to be a dick or something, but you and i have seen tier changes within SC3's lifetime. So honestly, why delude yourself with these tier lists? I played Kilik since SC1, dropped him in SC3. not because he was low tier or mid tier. But because he didn't fit my "style" of kilik that i used to play. Because if i dropped him because of being lower than top tier...i'd be a walking hypocrite. :D

EDIT: i'll give my "list" of who seems solid (since i think that's a better term for it right now) as soon as i get out of work. Fuckin people cant seem to check their bank accounts and now want to blame us for all the Overdraft fees......idiots.....
 
DreamingSky said:
There's tournament level, and then there is "casual" or "for fun" play. Tournament level play in the heyday of SF2 was total hogwash cheapshit, for example. Yes, there was incredible combo and trapping skill on display, but there was also merciless cheese and exploitation. From my experience, tournament play is basically "play the game as cheaply and exploitatively as possible." It has nothing to do with enjoyment, it's about winning by any means. Casual play is "let's explore the phase space and have fun." ....

Bear in mind, I'm not insulting tournament players. I know the mentality and understand why it is the way it is. And, for the record, to my very limited experience, SC4 is a much less innately cheesy fighting game than some I could name. I still contend, respectfully, that while it could be argued tournament play is the epitome of skill and dedication, casual play can often be more enjoyable and varied, even among players of extreme skill (which I am not). If nothing else, the amount of work (visual design and play mechanics) that went into crafting the SP modes and all the character development options is prodigious. I think it's a shame to totally ignore it.
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I hated the "no throws" crowd at the arcade 15 years ago. If you ask me just because you can't figure out how to defend against certain paths of attack or strategies, that doesn't make the game "cheesy" or the players exploitative, it just means you need to go back to the drawing board.

And, I think I can speak for many around here when I say this, but I find much more enjoyment from high-level competitive play than this "casual" stuff you're referring to. Whatever floats your boat I guess.

Anyway, on topic, Rock is top tier... 'nuff said.
 
We should all just stop trying to say who is top tier who is not.

Reading all the 13 pages of these forum, practically EVERY single character on the roster list made it up to top tier.
 
DreamingSky said:
......
casual play can often be more enjoyable and varied, even among players of extreme skill (which I am not). ....
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So, I guess the crowd watching Daigo vs Justin Wong at EVO would have been going so much wilder had they been just been playing casually?


On topic: Amy is low tier, just wait and see, :p.
 
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