1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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on CPU vs Player to determine tiers:

Letting the CPU fight on edgemaster to find out tiers was obviously wrong, and it has been explained very well why it is wrong.
Now letting the players determine has its clear inaccuracies too of course. it seems everyone has another "krypronite". And the advantages of characters also differ in the level of skill of the player.

Determining Tiers should be statistical data, and it should be generated by players who are highly skilled. Ill explain why this is...
The learning curve in SCIV goes fast up whn you first start playing, so letting low to relativly high skilled people determining it will introduce inaccuracies due to the fact the difference in skills plays a huge part in the outcome of the game, and it becomes difficult to blame character advantages or disadvantages for the outcome.

When people are reaching high-very high skill, the learning curve flattens, and skill level should become a less significant factor, making character advantages more prominent.
discussing tiers in a topic which is available to all SCIV players wont become a list that can be taken very serious.
Maybe get the statistics from the top players in tournenments will give clarity...

If these numbers will still show high variabiliy, it could maybe be concluded that the tier differences in this game arent very big... (=balance).
 
But those statistics would require thousands of observations to more or less cancel out "off-days" for good players. Plus, when factoring in certain match ups, you need way more observations.

I don't agree with the disagreement with tiers. Some characters just have better tools than others when it comes to mind games possibilities, ring out moves, soul gauge damage, overall damage, speed, mix-ups, range, UBs, throws etc etc. Based on that, tiers are made. Does this allow for a lot of subjectivity? Yes, it does, that's why these topics tend to have 20+ pages.
 
But those statistics would require thousands of observations to more or less cancel out "off-days" for good players. Plus, when factoring in certain match ups, you need way more observations.

That is correct... the more observations... the more reliable the data...
But the majority of games is played between people of different skill, and that is just data-polution.
What I said about letting high leveled people determine it wasnt meant as a viable way of doing it, but a theoretic statement.
In "real life" I dont think we will ever have a viable tier list. In my opinion this is also because of the minor differences in SCIV. I think the tier lists as they are presented now are too much based on things other than character advantages...

Rock is a good example of this. I dont think he is really that bad, ive sen good players kick peoples asses. Most times you fight online you will meet people that arent that skilled.... So one could ask himself:
Is rock picked so rarely because he is low-tier? or is he low-tier because he is picked so rarely.
 
I don't think you really need scientific data to get an idea of what tiers are. There are a number of easily quantifiable factors that determine how good a character is in theory. Here are some, in no particular order.

How good is their punishing game?
What's they're fastest punisher?
How many frames do they need to punish for a considerable amount of damage?
Can they punish well from FC? (this is very important)

How good is their mixup game?
Do they have fast lows that can't be blocked on reaction?
Do they have solid damage from mid attacks?
How safe are their mixable mids/lows?
How well can they pressure someone on wake up?

How good is their throw game?
Do they have high damaging options for both A and B breaks?
Do they have good RO options from their throws?
Do they have good okizeme from any of their throws?
How much range do they have on their throws?

How well can they stop step?
Do they have attacks that stop step to both sides?
Do they have mid attacks that stop step to both sides?
Can they get good damage for landing an attack on step counter?

How good is their pressure game?
Do they have good frame traps? (moves that are + on block or close to it).
Do they get good frame advantage on hit? (Do they get frame advantage from lows?)
Do they have solid evasive moves?
Do they have stance transitions that are good on block?
Do they have very fast attacks that can be used from disadvantage?

How is their overall damage?
Do they have high damage and safe launchers?
Are they able to get high damage from mids and lows?
Can they fish for CH combos with safe attacks?

How strong is their soul crush game?
Do they have high SG damage moves that are safe?
Do they have high SG damage moves that can stop step?
Do they have high SG damage moves that are fast?

Some characters can answer yes to a lot of these questions. Some not as much.

Fighting games basically come down to a series of guessing games. Anyone can win with any character by out-guessing their opponent. However, some characters don't need to guess correctly nearly as many times to win and many characters can force your opponent to guess with little risk to you if they guess right.
 
That method would also be quite complex, as simply adding up the number of times you can answer a question with yes wont do the trick... as some questions answered with yes are more valuable "win tools" then others.

So it isnt as easy as it looks
 
That method would also be quite complex, as simply adding up the number of times you can answer a question with yes wont do the trick... as some questions answered with yes are more valuable "win tools" then others.

So it isnt as easy as it looks

Yes that's why there are threads to debate the pros and cons.

However, if Sophie is good in most of those areas and Rock is not then we can safely say that Sophie is better than Rock.

We don't need a controlled setting with two people of the same skill level or any tournament data.
 
Tiers were never meant to be a controlled clinical study of who's better than whom. Tiers are a community discussion of the strengths and weaknesses of all the characters in the game.

Notice how tier lists change all the time? Even with such a "controlled" approach, the data could be skewed quite terribly since there is always a human factor involved.

Also, it's not absurd to start discussing tiers at ANY time. This thread IS called "Early Impressions..." after all. We realise that nothing is set in stone, but it DOES start to become more aparent that a character has the tools to succeed when multiple people are providing data and reasoning for said character.

Lastly, these current tiers, in general, aren't base off of tournies as there haven't been enough of them yet to create strong data. But it doesn't take someone winning a tourny to tell that characters like Sophie, Cassie, Yoshi (among others) are beasts that have the tools to succeed.
 
Allright, I didnt mean to spoil the fun... i was just relevating the significance of a tier list :)
Continue like i never said anything.
 
Just curious, if you had a match of say, Apprentice (bottom of most people's tier lists) vs Sophitia (top of most people's tier lists), would you give the Apprentice player a health advantage or the Sophi player a health disadvantage?

If not, why bother with tier lists?
 
Kosh,

Tiers aren't about evening the playing field, they're about seeing where the playing field is UNeven.

Basically, all a tier list says is which characters have the best inherent tools (or lack thereof) to win games.

What you do with the information is up to you. If someone was to win a tourny with The Apprentice, people would go nuts talking about how good the player must have been to win with such a bad character.
 
Kosh,

Tiers aren't about evening the playing field, they're about seeing where the playing field is UNeven.

Basically, all a tier list says is which characters have the best inherent tools (or lack thereof) to win games.

What you do with the information is up to you. If someone was to win a tourny with The Apprentice, people would go nuts talking about how good the player must have been to win with such a bad character.

Right, so when you see the playing field is uneven, don't you have a moral obligation to level it?
 
Absolutely not. There is no honor in playing to win, nor should you expect someone to give you a chance. It's up to a company to balance a game, not the players.

If you play for fun, you can play by whatever rules you want to make up. But real fights are about finding the easiest way to exploit your opponents flaws and prey on it...not feeling one bit sorry or apologizing for situations they put themselves in.

cha cha
 
It's a fighting game.

It's impossible to create a perfectly balanced fighting game and it has never been done.

Since tiers aren't definite, it would also be near impossible to impose a set amount of "handicap" health for low tier characters.

All you get for playing a low tier character is street cred and that's the way it should stay.
 
This is my impression of Amy.

How good is their punishing game?

What's they're fastest punisher?
-Amy's fastest punisher is 6BB at i11. It starts a mix-up right away with 236BB or 236, 2B+K (In my case). Her punishing speed is great.

How many frames do they need to punish for a considerable amount of damage?
-I think her fastest punisher, 6BB, can net significant damage. If you're at i19 in advantage, you can launch and full combo.

Can they punish well from FC? (this is very important)
-Yes, WS B (high) gives a shakable stun that comes out in i14. WS K (mid) gives knockdown and wake-up game in i17.


How good is their mixup game?


Do they have fast lows that can't be blocked on reaction?
-Yes. I don't think 1A can be blocked on reaction. It is i17 and deals decent damage. Very punishable on block, but if they are preemptively blocking low, they will eat a launcher or 3B. A good poke.

Do they have solid damage from mid attacks?
-Yes. 3BA itself is good damage and can be followed up with 33B or 8A+B on NC. 33B is also a safe mid that launches with a full combo.

How safe are their mixable mids/lows?
-Amy is pretty safe. Her lows are not that safe, but her mids are so strong that they will usually refrain from blocking low too often.

How well can they pressure someone on wake up?
-Well. A+K A hits grounded, and A+K B is an unblockable mid that is also fast. Tech check and hit them with either one. (as a singular example.)


How good is their throw game?


Do they have high damaging options for both A and B breaks?
-Not sure if they are high in comparison, but I think the A-throw gets more damage.

Do they have good RO options from their throws?
-B-throw with the back parallel to the wall will ringout, but it is difficult. Also a side-throw can ringout. Overall, not really.

Do they have good okizeme from any of their throws?
-Average. I'd strike instead.

How much range do they have on their throws?
-Bad. This is a weakness I think. Amaryllis (236) will help with this though, also providing opportunities to strike, making a mix-up.

How well can they stop step?

Do they have attacks that stop step to both sides?
-3A stops steps well enough. Not sure if it gets both sides, unfortunately. She has others, but they are slower and bad in my opinion.

Do they have mid attacks that stop step to both sides?
-Yes, but they aren't her fastest moves.

Can they get good damage for landing an attack on step counter?
-Yes, 22_88 B G B is unshakable, 66B follow-up. 22_88 B is decent damage, steps like crazy by itself, but no follow-ups. Not confident about side-stepping horizontals, but she has them.

How good is their pressure game?

Do they have good frame traps? (moves that are + on block or close to it).
-66A gives +5 on block, but Amy can be hit in the start-up. If it hits it's even better.

Do they get good frame advantage on hit? (Do they get frame advantage from lows?)
-2A gives +4 on hit. It leads right into Amy's good WS moveset.
Do they have solid evasive moves?
-The best, perhaps.

Do they have stance transitions that are good on block?
-She has three parries stances for all heights that lead into one another. Safe attacks that lead from the parries (A+B B is completely safe on block and you hit you're given 70 damage). All parries have mix-up strikes afterwards. They all come out fast.

Do they have very fast attacks that can be used from disadvantage?
-6BB can hit people from disadvantage, depending on the character. You'll need to read the frame data of the opponent, or get a feel for it yourself from practice. 11 Frames is only slower than Taki's quick moves.


How is their overall damage?


Do they have high damage and safe launchers?
-Yes. 33B, 66B, 8WR A+B. All safe, all have good juggles. (8wr A+B can be punished lightly by Amy and Taki I think.

Are they able to get high damage from mids and lows?
-Yes, see above.

Can they fish for CH combos with safe attacks?
-Yes, but it's not something that an Amy player must go for. She's good with NC combos. 1KA is safe on block (you actually get advantage, +4) and gives a huge stun on counter hit


How strong is their soul crush game?


Do they have high SG damage moves that are safe?
-3BA - Huge. 6B+K - Huge. 33B - Huge. All get around -10 on block. All of them do good damage anyway.

Do they have high SG damage moves that can stop step?
-I don't think this is a strength for Amy. I could be wrong.

Do they have high SG damage moves that are fast?
-Amy is generally fast, and the good SG moves are pretty fast. 3BA is bread and butter with high damage, high SG damage, Safe, and a low-block trap--all at i18 I think.

Amy has mostly strengths. Prove me wrong or add some more--this is how knowledge is born.
 
Rico said:
I know this is off topic in this thread but...

I think you guys are relying too much on baits and CHs in Tira's game. The only moves with her that I'm actively baiting for CH (and I don't even do them THAT much) are JS 2A,B and JS 6A,B, both of which are completely CH hit confirmable.

As for Block punishment, she has 44K which is i11, making her one of the few people that can punish moves with that little negative frames. In JS it does decent damage and in GS you get A LOT of free damage for an i11 punisher.

Tira actually has a very good poke game though most people don't even think to play her in that manor. Here are some good pokes (all are safe with the exception of JS 6K and JS 1B which can be punished by Amy's 6B,B and possible one or two other characters).

-JS_GS 6K Mid range tech jump mid that forces crouch.
-JS_GS 1B Fast mid poke that hits grounded and tracks step decently.
-JS_GS 2K Great low tick kick that leads to...
-JS_GS wsK Fast tech jump, tech crouch mid that stuns on CH in GS.
-GS 2A Doesn't whiff anymore (thanks patch!). Above average 2A.

Other moves you should be doing:

-JS_GS 3B -12 on block mid that gives good damage especially in GS
-JS_GS 1A -12 on block low that only Amy and few others can punish. Good damage.
-JS 66_99_33 A,A GREAT tech crouch whiff punisher that rings out well.
-JS_GS 44K One of the fastest punishers in the game and even better in GS.
-JS 2A LOW 2A that leads to a very easily CH confirmable second hit.
-GS 2A+B Long range,safe (I think) whiff punisher with good damage on hit/CH.


She has a bunch more decent moves but these are really the ones that stand out to me.

Stop fishing for CH with her and do some damage!
I know the above quote was posted in another thread, but let me continue discussions of it here.


Corrections
44K is i12, not i11.

JS 1B
-11 and S-mid

GS WR K
shakable stun on CH.

JS 66_99_33 A,A
-20 on block and ring out potential is relatively average.

Anyway, getting that straight. The key problems I see with Tira

She is somewhat short ranged, but her best moves almost require you to play a run-away game with WR K and other push back moves. This works quite well against characters that are offensive.

However characters that have the bigger advantage at a range it really becomes hard for Tira. She has to try to stay in close with moves that push them further and further away. Sure she has BB as a good move to keep them close, but it has poor block frames and poor tracking.

I would have to disagree with Rico in that she has a good poking game. She has some good pokes no question, but in practice when you try to form them together in a poking game it is difficult. I mean one blocked 6K or WR K and your poking onslaught is over without the opponent coming back in for more ("Thank you Tira, may I have another").

Maybe I am the only Tira player with this problem, but I have noticed tracking being an issue. Now I know she has 33K or JS 66AA and a few other moves that track very well, but they are either slow, high_low, or just ugly on block. Particulary I see very few moves that help cover her weakness to people that step or walk to the right. If a better Tira player can clarify and perhaps help me in a weakness that could just be my own that would be much appreciated.

In closing, I believe Tira seems mid tier on paper, but in practice she honestly feels low tier. Playing her reveals several brick walls that you have to overcome as a player.
 
On Rico's point with poking, her best poking moves are a WS K, 2A and 2K, easily. That's two highs and a low and with GS 2A finally patched, it can poke from a greater distance. Mix that up with a A,A combo here and there is a decent mixup poking game. Her 6B also hitting mid creates a bit of frustration also but that's not a move I would use in close range. Going in for a WR K can make it look like it can be a 2K but it really depends on how a player uses these mixups.

And I will confirm she has a bad tracking game. Her A,A feels like it should track well but it doesn't. Her B, B obviously doesn't track well; Her 2K has bad tracking; WC B is stepped fairly easily; etc.

Maybe I'm moving those moves Rico posted wrong. I just haven't found most of them to work well against the Mitsu's and sisters unless on CH or fairly good mixup.

I don't want her to be low tier but she probably is and nothing hasn't really convinced me otherwise so far. Like I said, I may need to see some videos.
 
Absolutely not. There is no honor in playing to win, nor should you expect someone to give you a chance. It's up to a company to balance a game, not the players.

If you play for fun, you can play by whatever rules you want to make up. But real fights are about finding the easiest way to exploit your opponents flaws and prey on it...not feeling one bit sorry or apologizing for situations they put themselves in.

cha cha

I am super impressed with this post. It explains how I feel perfectly, and I think if everyone had this mindset, you'd find a hell of a lot more good players popping up a hell of a lot faster, and the "I wanna do neat shit and win with MY character" types would all fall out of the serious players' scene a lot quicker, leaving room for even more growth.
I know I sound like an elitist who doesn't want to even listen to new people, but that's fairly accurate. Whether or not you believe in or agree with tiers at all, you can't argue that some characters are better than others, and it will always be that way. To go against that, you are setting up a very long, hard losing battle that will only frustrate you and leave a bad taste in your mouth up until you turn your back on the game, or competitive scene as a whole.
 
Whether or not you believe in or agree with tiers at all, you can't argue that some characters are better than others, and it will always be that way.


A couple of posts back ive expresses my doubts on tier discussions. I do acknowledge that there are probably characters that have (minor) advantages over others... in some games this becomes pretty obvious very quick, in SCIV I have a hard time pointing characters with advantages or flaws out.
So here i go, and join the discussion:

At this moment I kinda think Mitsurugi has an advantage over other characters... this is not based on "hard" data, but personal experience... so i see that i can be wrong. but where i beat spammers easily, i have to work my ass off to beat a mitsu spammer.
This means a mitsu player has to work less hard to get his character winning a good amount of matches against me.

I also think Yoda has some huge flaws that make him a hard charatcer to become good with. sure.. he cant be thrown, and high attacks tend to miss. but a lot of his moves send him jumoing, and every single move at your disposal will beat him to the ground, and give opportunities for followups.

I know there are people that look into these things in more detail, and will provide more reliable and backed-up information.
 
I see Mitsu as a different fight then most. The same way you might alter your style to fight Yoda for example. I personally think he will drop down to a low A or high B but not any lower simply because of his raw stats being very good.

Personally i think Raph, Ivy, Yoshi, Amy, Sets, Cassie and Sophie. Will make up A tier after a lot of time.

Raph simply because i think as other characters slowly get weakened he will stay very similar after this first patch. Also its not like he wasn't already almost A tier.

Ivy because of after someone completely masters her stances i have a feeling she will be like watching poetry in motion.

Rest should be pretty obvious. Though Amy might drop a tier if they keep weakening her without doing it to the sisters or Yoshi.
 
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