1.03 Tier List Discussion (aka Argument)

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No, that is not all he has. -_-

He DOES have some good things. 4B+K is pretty spammable and does decent soul gauge damage. Interrupt wise, his 2K is still better than most people's because it moves him forward and has good range, he has an ok 2A, and he has one of the best 3Ks I've seen in SC4. He's just weak in mixups so he'll take a while to win, but that doesn't mean he can't win at all.
 
I never said he can't win at all. The point I'm trying to make is that Zas has a sickeningly short list of usable tools and hence has to rely on things like 2K for actual damage.

4B+K is fine on the surface, but the first hit pushes the opponent back slightly and often out of the range of the second hit, causing it to whiff and leaving him open to punishment. Otherwise it's not a bad move, but it's also not a great one.

So hyperbole aside, I would say Zas has fewer good options to rely on than almost any other fighter, and the options that he does have are mediocre.
 
Angrel-San said:
Not bad man.

Here are mine if including the Star Wars characters.

Top Tier:

Kilik, Setsuka, Voldo, Ivy, Cassandra, Hilde, Algol

Upper mid:

Starkiller, Astaroth, Amy, Yoshimitsu

Mid:

Mina, Vader, Cervantes, Siegfried, Xianghua, Taki, Yunsung, Sophitia, Rock, Raphael, Nightmare, Tira, Talim, Mitsurugi, Lizardman

Lower Mid:

Maxi, Zasalamel


Low Tier:

Yoda


Also Maxou, check your PMs.
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I'm glad Mina is no longer top tier omgwtfbbqpwn in your lists.
 
Tiamat said:
Why? the move is nearly useless regardless of the matchup. why not just do KK, 3K, or 2A in any situation where you might do B+K?

Zas reverse RO is best in the game, but frontal RO? Hell no, he can't hold a candle to nightmare, astaroth, and hilde in that category.


Zas is not hopeless but he is without a doubt low tier if not bottom.
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How is B+K hopeless? That is his fastest attack, and it can get fast characters like Taki or Cass away from you.

KK is not a suitable substitute that attack is unsafe. I think KK is a gimmick and it's easy to block. Its only use is for people who rarely fight him and thus don't know about the second hit.

His reverse RO game resides soley on how well your opponent knows what he can do. I think the only moves that can be seriously considered for this are B+G, 6AB, and BT B+K. Two of those must be counters to connect to a RO, and if your opponent knows how to fight Zas then I think you can nix B+G and BT B+K.

Also the things in the Sets video I was referring to were things such agB agB 2143ab which is similiar to Cass 236 x5 236B. You can use that the same way to go for a RO. I was not referring the video for the wall combos. I suggested that because most people don't know what Sets is capable of, because they have never fought one that could bring out her true potential. Also let's not forgot alot of people base their judgment on online play, and you will most likely never fight a Sets online that can use these moves continuously.
 
Saitoh said:
Astaroth is WAY stronger than Rock IMHO.
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Dullyanna said:
@Plume: Astaroth has more damage to back it up, and the lion's share of better moves compared to Rock. As others have said, Rock has an excellent oki game, but that's about it.
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I didn't expect anyone to take me seriously when I said Astaroth sucks because I can do better with Rock who has 40 more hours of practice.

I thought it was clear that I wanted to make a point by saying that it's kinda pointless to give an opinion about a character that you don't play much.
If I played 40 more hours with Rock, I have no reason to be as good or better with Astaroth. It means that I have no reason to judge Astaroth.

So he doesn't have much of a reason to judge Zasalamel which, he admits, he hasn't studied seriously at all.


Impending_Doom66 said:
Also the things in the Sets video I was referring to were things such agB agB 2143ab which is similiar to Cass 236 x5 236B.
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agB is a trash move that is *never* used. agB combos are as meaningless as wall combos, if not more.
 
Plume said:
I didn't expect anyone to take me seriously when I said Astaroth sucks because I can do better with Rock who has 40 more hours of practice.

I thought it was clear that I wanted to make a point by saying that it's kinda pointless to give an opinion about a character that you don't play much.
If I played 40 more hours with Rock, I have no reason to be as good or better with Astaroth. It means that I have no reason to judge Astaroth.

So he doesn't have much of a reason to judge Zasalamel which, he admits, he hasn't studied seriously at all.

agB is a trash move that is *never* used. agB combos are as meaningless as wall combos, if not more.
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Whoops, I fail for missing the sarcasm*. Anyway, IMHO, wall combos can win you matches, especially if you're a character who's good at ROs. I have to agree that agB is complete and utter crap, though. It's a fucking Bizarro 2A+B.

*I'm not kidding here**.
**I'm not kidding about kidding there, seriously.
 
I think that agB has its uses, but thats just me.

Also Plume your are irritating me stop twisting what I say.
I said I played Zas oftenbut I didn't know the ins and outs of his style yet. So when I decided to add him as my third main I played him alot. I'd say in the last two weeks I've layed Zas seriously for over 20 hours so don't tell me I don't know anything about him.

ALSO IF YOU ARE GOING TO USE THAT ARGUMENT THEN YOU MIGHT AS WELL GET OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION BECAUSE NO ONE HAS PUT IN THAT MUCH TIME WITH EACH CHARACTER.

I would like to know how much practice time people have put in with the characters they just push aside as top or bottom tier. All these people that cry the blues about about Sophitia or Ivy who are they to judge if they haven't put in hours upon hours of training with that character.

Plus Zas is a relatively simple character so we would also have to judge practice time based on the character. In that case I think no one is qualified to judge Ivy's tier position, because her style is so complex I bet no one knows every stance change and move.
 
Impending_Doom66 said:
In that case I think no one is qualified to judge Ivy's tier position, because her style is so complex I bet no one knows every stance change and move.
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I hope you're joking because if not that may be the stupidest thing someone has intentionally posted in this thread so far.
 
The amount of time you have put into the character is irrelevant if you are not approaching the character properly.
 
agB with Sets CAN be decent so long as you can do the JF version.

Particaularly, this move is very useful post GI against people that like to re-GI. It takes just enough to time make their GI whiff, and the JF version leads to big damage.

I, myself, can't get the JF version fo this move AT ALL (the only Sets JF I can't do) so I rarely if ever use the move. I'd rather 11B, personally. It's safe and can do almost the same amount of damage.
 
@Impending_Doom66: I was just saying, "The move still doesn't seem really worthwhile, in my opinion," not,"It's hard to do, therefore irrelevant. If it leads to fucking great combos, then I should go learn how to do the move. As it is, I don't see learning how to do it consistently as a greater priority than pretty much every other JF that Setsuka has.
 
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