Abusive moderation on this site

Ignis, that quote was in an actual thread used to argue against Hilde / Algol. Plume makes tons of posts in a similar manner (lacking logic). I had to assume it was real which is why I was so baffled I had to put it in my sig.
 
Swithin said:
Thanks Ignis, it feels good to be online posting about SC again. Hopefully I'll get to play with any of you guys from the Seattle area sooner rather than later. I do remember a lot of people from the old days, don't know if anyone would remember me though. :)

Not to hijack the thread, but you do bring up a good point. It's easy for people to get along, even with assholes, even assholes getting along with other assholes. The key is to have a greater purpose to the communication; in this case, getting better at Soul Calibur and sharing stories with others who enjoy the game. I was honest when I said this issue is enough to be noticeable (and irritating) to a lurker, but it has little to do with people being assholes... just people not realizing what the other person is trying to communicate, or communicating the wrong thing to keep the "greater debate" intact and useful.
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We're meeting friday! Check out the Seattle thread in the off-line comp. Lies place this Friday, we've been meeting pretty regular.
 
Archangel said:
Great post, Swithin.
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Thanks, Archangel. :)

ShenOu said:
First things first, Swithin, fantastic post. I really like the perspective you brought to the table, you've contributed a lot. Welcome to 8wr.
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Hey thanks, it's good to be here. I took a look at the Algol/Hilde thread, and it's a lot less hate-filled now, that's for sure. Still closed though. I don't mean to get on your case at all, but there's something you said that I kinda want to bring up:

ShenOu said:
Personal Opinion doesn't cut it as Evidence, I'd want to see tournament results, gameplay footage from events where every player and spectator can be assured that those events were graced by players who MATTERED. All we've been getting from the countless threads and posts is Personal Opinion.
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I totally get what you're saying, but I think there's a bit of a disconnect here on two points. S-U isn't talking about tournament results, he's talking about tournament turn-out. He even mentioned that Hilde's and Algol's actual game-play strength aren't the issue, it's how people perceive them, what they expect. It's the "do I go to the tourney today with my Mina and get creamed by another Hilde, or hang out with my gf?" question. I don't think he's suggesting that bans are the answer to that - he didn't suggest anything at all, in fact. If this really is going to be a big problem amongst the players who don't "matter" yet, and there is a potential non-ban solution, he said he's looking for it. Everyone just assumed he's talking about bans.

The second thing is how do we divide the players who "matter" from the players who don't? This is a forum, not tryouts for a national team. As I see it (and again, 8WR really isn't my place yet,) the forums should be a place where pure skill doesn't determine how much your opinion matters, rather thoughtful and productive posting do. He did the leg work, he counted heads, that is evidence, not personal opinion. One person can't check the turn-out of every local across the country, but if they notice a dramatic trend like that at an event they attend regularly... that should meet the criteria for calling it to attention.

What it sounds like to me is that S-U is saying the community needs to do something about the PR of Hilde and Algol (mostly Hilde,) make them seem less of an insurmountable challenge for the people who apparently have stopped showing up because of them. If I were good enough and cared enough, I'd start working on breaking the anti-Hilde strats character-by-character and handing them out on fliers at every single local event. I'd even exaggerate with the title: BEAT HILDE USING ANY CHARACTER WHILE HARDLY TRYING. If that's what people need to hear, need to feel is at least possible, then the community should focus on getting that message out or it will shrink. And that's completely different from a ban conversation, which was the point S-U was trying (but apparently failed) to make. It seems like this shit has gone around so many times people just hear what they expect to hear and few people noticed.

Look, I voted for the Algol ban in 08, based on what the character *could* do. I was anti-VC back in the day and I panicked, shot first and asked questions later. I'm not sure that was the wrong decision, really. I wasn't worried about Algol dominating the entire game (that would just be too damn boring to go on,) just dominating perceptions. It seems like he's not really ban-worthy after all, in game-breaking terms... not so sure about community-breaking terms though. If characters are going to be 800lb gorillas for the majority of mid-low level players and you don't ban them, you've got to deal with their impact nonetheless or you still face the consequences of how people perceive them, and nobody was talking about that - just about how anyone who voted to ban him was a "scrub". Not fun to be called that - I'm not afraid to face a good Algol, that was never the point. It wasn't about winning more, it was about the health of the game. There are two conversations going on about Hilde right now - one is outright whining, and the other is about mitigating the damage she causes to the scene simply by being in the game. My take on the solution is to open a (edit: sticky?) thread for the first one where people can shout their lungs out about how much they hate her without getting insulted for it (and let the mods wipe any bitchy posts out of all other threads,) and let S-U or whoever run a discussion about how to get people to stop fearing her.

Sorry if that sounded aggressive, I pulled an all-nighter last night and I just got back from class. I'm still a little loopy. :)

Tactu said:
We're meeting friday! Check out the Seattle thread in the off-line comp. Lies place this Friday, we've been meeting pretty regular.
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Dude, I can't this Friday. Not only do I have three finals Mon/Tues, but I'm prepping for my first DM session on a long-running campaign Sat (huge nerd, I know, should be doing homework... or playing SC.) I'll check out the match-finder thread, and show up next week if I'm in town (might go to California with my gf for spring break.) Thanks for the invite though - I might not drive all the way down to Federal Way or whatever, but if there's game in Seattle / U District / East Side I'll definitely meet all you guys. I'll try to bring a good Taki player I know with me, too. (edit: cool, I'll see you guys there.)

PS - Whoever tagged this thread as "scrubs" and "whiners" really isn't helping anyone's cause.
 
Lies is in Redmond. If you're coming from seattle you might want to carpool with Greatone and sweets. Hope to see you in a few weeks when school is out.
 
I'll just keep it short and as clear as possible.

That's the definition of a troll, too stupid to understand anybody else telling them something. I'm not a troll; I give my opinion, and listen to yours; it doesn't have to change mine, but god damnit if you don't listen and post a response, you're no better than a rock.
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There are two opinions on this issue.
The opinion of countless people who can't deal with Hilde and Algol...
Versus the opinion of Hilde and Algol players, all the 10 of them.

Which one do you think is the most important?
Should the organizers keep the 10 Hilde and Algol players happy, or should they keep the 500+ others happy instead?



Edit: And that quote is saying exactly what Something-Unique said in his thread.
Algol and Hilde seem to be ruining everything because of how they're seen by the high majority of players, no matter how balanced you think they might be.
You should matter less than the huge amount of potential players who stay away because of these two characters.
But of course it's easier to quote one sentence that sounds illogical for anyone unable to understand the real meaning, rather than a whole post from S-U.
 
I can make many more NHL references.

The NHL used to have a little thing called a ratings problem.

It was due to this defensive hockey tactic known as the Neutral Zone trap, which took advantage of the two line pass rule. The Devils pioneered it and won the cup in 95. Other teams "got used to it", an started using it as well.

And it worked.... and guess what - SCORING WENT DOWN.
The mark of a great goal scorer - 50 goals per season, went unachieved for the first time in decades during several seasons between 1995 and 2004 the year of the lockout.
http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/nhl-50-goal-scorers/

Other teams besides the Devils won the cup in those years - the Wings, Avalanche, Stars and Lightning to be exact, and many began using the Neutral Zone trap to great success.

But guess what happened - ratings went down. People turned away, they were bored.... and after all that the NHL was on lockout and had to win back its fans.

What did they do?
They got rid of the 2 line pass rule (which enabled the neutral zone trap) which allowed more breakaways, they called more penalties (which increased scoring), put in shootouts, so there would be no more ties, and promoted new and exciting personalities.

Sure, purists complained that this was a new game with too many rules, and wasnt like the "old time hockey" they were used to. But their voices were soon silenced by money - money from ever increasing ratings and ticket sales.

Yooooo. hockey
 
Serge2HOT4U said:
I can make many more NHL references.

The NHL used to have a little thing called a ratings problem.

It was due to this defensive hockey tactic known as the Neutral Zone trap, which took advantage of the two line pass rule. The Devils pioneered it and won the cup in 95. Other teams "got used to it", an started using it as well.

And it worked.... and guess what - SCORING WENT DOWN.
The mark of a great goal scorer - 50 goals per season, went unachieved for the first time in decades during several seasons between 1995 and 2004 the year of the lockout.
http://www.sportscity.com/nhl/nhl-50-goal-scorers/

Other teams besides the Devils won the cup in those years - the Wings, Avalanche, Stars and Lightning to be exact, and many began using the Neutral Zone trap to great success.

But guess what happened - ratings went down. People turned away, they were bored.... and after all that the NHL was on lockout and had to win back its fans.

What did they do?
They got rid of the 2 line pass rule (which enabled the neutral zone trap) which allowed more breakaways, they called more penalties (which increased scoring), put in shootouts, so there would be no more ties, and promoted new and exciting personalities.

Sure, purists complained that this was a new game with too many rules, and wasnt like the "old time hockey" they were used to. But their voices were soon silenced by money - money from ever increasing ratings and ticket sales.

Yooooo. hockey
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Serge is raping this thread. Sooner or later we're going to have the 2009 until SC5 lockout unless people admit Hilde and Algol is killing the scene.
 
Between 1995-2004? That seems like a much larger period of time than the 7months or so its been. Your analogy works I admit, but who were the ones making the changes? The fans or the people in charge of the actual game?

The ball is in Namco's court.

Going by this example, the people in charge didn't make these changes right away and they had plenty of evidence that the rule was detrimental to the game. The sport itself also relies on the fans to tune in so that they are able to make money so that's another reason why they had to at all costs get the bored spectators back. If they were scared that the fans might start to leave in say 95 (or the year they made the rule) they could have taken it away out of fear, but they did not. Why is that?
 
Guys, I know I'm totally new here... but Papy was bringing up a point how the pro-ban/anti-ban arguments hijack every other thread, stifling the ability to talk about the game seriously - and it's getting hijacked by more pro-ban/anti-ban arguments. Yes, you all have convincing arguments that will get the thread locked within 10 posts. Whee.

I try to be nice, especially when new, but I'm kinda involved in the real conversation here, and the irony is ridiculous. Can we first negotiate a place where you can have fun throwing these things at each other all day long and then you start?

edit: actually, can we just split this thread into two? Papy's and S-U's concerns deserve to be treated with respect. If you want to keep your inflammatory posts (yet you all complain about hijacked threads coming up all the time and getting locked....) let's just give you a "playtime" thread to do it in.
 
Plume said:
I'll just keep it short and as clear as possible.

There are two opinions on this issue.
The opinion of countless people who can't deal with Hilde and Algol...
Versus the opinion of Hilde and Algol players, all the 10 of them.

Which one do you think is the most important?
Should the organizers keep the 10 Hilde and Algol players happy, or should they keep the 500+ others happy instead?



Edit: And that quote is saying exactly what Something-Unique said in his thread.
Algol and Hilde seem to be ruining everything because of how they're seen by the high majority of players, no matter how balanced you think they might be.
You should matter less than the huge amount of potential players who stay away because of these two characters.
But of course it's easier to quote one sentence that sounds illogical for anyone unable to understand the real meaning, rather than a whole post from S-U.
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Don't be an ass
I'll put it bluntly now don't be an asshole...If they're are only 10 Hilde/Algol players than why is it such a problem?You'll hardly see them?(sarcasm)I'll just repeat what others have said: Give some actual proof that the "doom combo" Hilde or Algol won a tournament until I see proof I'll just dismiss the banning/patching threads as paranoia/whining/bitching.If the organizers banned characters because people thought they were "broke" then the WHOLE roster would be banned
 
ValentineKnight, you are hurting the argument more than you are helping. If people want to make this a civil discussion then I want to see if it leads to the same place as always. I'm tired of opinion being thrown around as fact. I want to see if some real proof can be presented for once.
 
Ceirnian said:
ValentineKnight, you are hurting the argument more than you are helping. If people want to make this a civil discussion then I want to see if it leads to the same place as always. I'm tired of opinion being thrown around as fact. I want to see if some real proof can be presented for once.
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Oh I'm not arguing I'm just tired of this banning shit.they're ban threads poping up every two weeks and it's always the fucking same shit.Why do I post in them simple I like Hilde and I don't like people talking shit about her and the stupid flaming of Hilde players So I defend them because I am a learning Hilde player.
 
You want proof for what?

You want proof that Algol and Hilde are SEEN as broken by the majority and that most people quit or don't start going to competitions because of how they see those two characters?

Is that the proof you want?
 
And again we come to a point where differences show. Since when is it my concern to cater to people who quit about how they SEE a character? Also, do you have anything to account for SF4 just coming out? Are big tournaments suppose to concede to people who boycott just because they don't want to fight certain people on the cast?

Or what, do you need a counter for people who will continue playing even if the two characters are allowed? Should it come down to a poll to decide who the majority is?
 
I just want to point out for a tactic to be heavily unbalanced it doesn't have to be unbeatable. It doesn't even have to win every tournament. It can still be heavily unbalanced.

And I'm not sure what is meant exactly by fact as opposed to opinion. When I say that it is a heavily unbalanced situation whenever any character(besides Hilde herself) has to face Hilde on a small stage, in literal terms it is an opinion, BUT that doesn't mean it's not true. The fact is that on most stages Hilde can screw up several times and still win the match but any other character is kind of lucky if they get away with screwing up twice versus a half decent Hilde player. It's like playing connect four except you have to connect 10 and your opponent only has to connect 3, not impossible to win but is it fair? Again for the record I never wanted Hilde banned just some stage restriction.

I just want to ask, what exactly would it hurt if we at the very least banned the smallest stages when Hilde is used? Would it really screw up anyone's game drastically? Does anyone think that it would not help balance things just a little?

Doing something like that wouldn't just help tournament numbers it would help balance things. Just because Namco hasn't done anything doesn't mean we should just leave it as is. It's like not trying to stop yourself from bleeding and just saying "the paramedics will take care of it."
 
Serge2HOT4U said:
The Devils pioneered it and won the cup in 95.

Yooooo. hockey
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Hey hey hey... we won more than 1 cup during that time :) And I have a good feeling about thsi year (as long as marty doesn't allow 5-7 goals every 3rd or 4th game o.O). More importantly we can score this year!! YAY!! lol. I want a Devil Sharks cup this year (ohh...and Marty B. is BROKE..lol).

So I don't get the argument really right now. Is it that people want there to be a ban...or just to find a way to make it so people don't hate hilde and algol as much? (personally I don't have any issue at all with algol. There are ways around his bubble spam. And from what I've seen the people who I feel are better with him don't bubble spam until they are about to lose a match anyway at which point they end up losing said match anyhow). As for Hilde I personally believe in best out of 3 match rules where round 1 is random...round two and three are loser's choice. That way if you can win your random round against a Hilde you'll be guaranteed either a round 2 win or a round 3 cage match ..which should get ride of a lot of the "I HATE HILDE" problems. That is me assuming the issue is people hating her ringouts rather than the damage. Cuz other characters can do that kind of damage, she is just the only one that has that kind of ringout ability.

And as miko said WAY early in the thread.. I personally like the challenge of playing against a hilde player. Makes the game have a more chess-like david v. Goliath feel to it. And its lets you taunt after a win without feeling bad about it. Personally I've never played a hilde of Ceirn's calibur (haha...sigh) so I havn't seen the extent of the issue. But then again, I know most people haven't. I have no problem with hilde's that I have played, sure I get "fuck that" rung out a few times, but I win overall anyway.

the ball WOULD be in Namco's court (err..rink..err..motherboard??) if it weren't for the fact that they don't run the tournements. To take past analogy, it is the NHL that runs the "tourney" that pays the winners (technically its the team..but NHL pays for the TV coverage..I won't get into it..lol)..etc etc. Just as it is the tourney sponsors that do those things for SC4..not Namco. Namco is the (whomever created the game of hockey back in the day) who has let thier "game" pass on to others to be changed and what not. Unfortunately the problem is that we can't just code the game differently on our own so that ,say, Hilde's B charge doesn't pick up anymore (I think this is too harsh of a change though) or that her charge A doesn't tc, impact, and all that..or at least make it so the B charge doesn't pick up after it (this is a fair change...doesn't destroy her at all..just takes away the doom combo). But again...we can't do that so we have to wait for namco to help everyone out with a patch (that will more than likely either never come or won't come for a long time).

Which leaves us back at the point of ppl running the tourney listening to the "public" as to what should be done. Regionals are before evo right? (right?) well then honestly all that can be done is to wait and see how things play out at this tournement and take the issue from there. (the regional winners are the only ones that can enter that anyway right? or am I wrong about that..either way...the ppl that are "important" for that tourney..unlike evo..are the regional winners anyway, and they are not about to not go just because of there being hilde or whomever being used at the tournament). Take the argument about tournemnt bans or WHATEVER after this big event occurs...not before.

Or am I wrong and this is a complaint about not wanting to go to little "gatherings" because of this? If that is the case then ..well.. just be nice about it and maybe ask the person playing hilde to use a different character every other match with you just the toe sake of "fun" (which is what the gatherings are about in a large part).

Online I won't even bother talking about... all I'll say is my LORD is her B charge linear..lol

I understand the issue...nobody will supposedly go to an event like evo to throw down 20-30 dollars or whatever with a mental notion that they will lose anyway (of course..think about it..these are probably therefore the same ppl that would be losing to a good mitsu with rushdown moves or a good cervy or a good WHOMEVER anyway...). But seriously you have to wait for a big event to happen before any of this talk should or can come to fruition.

Now...if the isuee is about the mods being annoying by closing threads then you have to realize this site is run by them. It is not a democracy. Yes..the people who come here keep it alive, but the mods are the one that run it and so you kinda have to deal. the site won't close because your one hot-button issue is getting short-changed so they can get away with deleting the thread. If there are a LOT of these threads..then they have a right to close them (and an obligation too really..as long as they are civil and point you to where it SHOULD be posted). If they are closing all of them PERIOD..then they are kinda being uncool about the issue, but again, you kinda have to deal with it.

Hell though, I probably don't have a strong enough opinion on this to be ranting on this thread though. I'm just a guy on the sidelines looking at two latino chicks going at it at the laundry mat who understands both chick's position but still doesn't understand completely why it must lead to a bitch-fight. (sorry for the slightly stereotypical analogy...but then again slightly stereotypical usually is another way of saying "actual").

Anyway, Short:
Abusive moderation=bad..but have to deal.

Closing thread: not bad unless done without a good reason and proper notification/re-direction

Algol: Homosexual urges towards his own son (who was a CaS of sig? LAME), but his cum-ball- blaster ain't broken.... although wait until after reg. to decide about it (personally don't find it an issue)

Hilde: Closet lesbian who feels depressed becuase they don't have t
he surgery necessary to remove her mole so she takes it out on everyone with her "doom" combo which, until a big tourney has happened, can't "fairly" be removed from the game (p.s- she is probably vegan too)

Who is in control of the banning? Those that run the tourney. They will take input, but in the end its there choice...not namco (unless they patch the game...like they'll put in the time and effort...)...not the "top" players...not even the "unruly masses."

What should we do in the meantime? Practice against hilde. Practice against algol. Learn how to counter them or whatever. Go get some good chinese food in San Fransisco (if you live in NY you eat chinese too..midwest/texas/etc..you are fucked for chinese so don't bother) go out on a date with your girl and just enjoy yourself instead of carign so much about an issue that needs a little more time to flesh its self out.

P.S - would people consider yoshi broke if someone was able to find a way to get his 4A: series just down to the point he could ring someone out from anywhere? So that any launch would equal death? What would teh argument be there? That he was using an infinite? At which point how many times (compared to hilde's rehits with the same move) would be it be considered "legal" for him to use the move until he was "cheating." There is an obvious difference in the skill of doing that and hilde's rather easy (not super easy..but its not THAT hard really once u get the hang of it..) doom combo.
 
In the NHL there were actually attempts at changes between 1995 an 2004. I remember hearing about many different ideas, but the truth of the matter is that nothing got accomplished till the NHL owners and players associations fucked themselves with their collective bargaining agreement (so people were "dealing with it" when "things werent that bad").
With people not really giving a shit about hockey to begin with, they needed to make sure that the fans were excited after an entire year off - and that came with rule changes that i mentioned above.
Now, the NHL handles shit swiftly (See the Sean Avery mention above).

Yes, it was the NHL in charge of making these changes, but for the fans who make them money. In this sense Namco isnt the NHL - we are, because we get to set the rules (heck, even that G4 tourney was run under our conditions if i recall correctly).
In the NHL now everyone is making more money since the fans are back into it. But you see, in games we have the distinct feature of being both fan and player, and a loss of fans here is like a NHL team folding due to poor attendance or ratings. Sure, you can say who the fuck is gonna miss the Phoenix Coyotes or the New York Islanders, but then many more will follow suit.

But yeah, the NHL actually proved a really interesting saying i recently heard:
"It's easy to stand up and act in a crisis, I mean when you are at your lowest point - you dont wanna stay there and there is nowhere to go but up. It's much harder to stand up against mediocrity, since in mediocrity some might be comfortable and might actually have to risk something."

Or as i hear in a mack book - "Nice guys don't finish last, they rot in middle management"
 
ValentineKnight

Not sure if you were being sarcastic, I wasn't suggesting that it should be non random just that we should not allow the smallest stages(even though that would not fix the problem it would just decrease it a tad).
 
DmanXIIX said:
ValentineKnight

Not sure if you were being sarcastic, I wasn't suggesting that it should be non random just that we should not allow the smallest stages(even though that would not fix the problem it would just decrease it a tad).
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No I wasn't just didn't know if the stage was random(I think it should be)
 
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