Robin
[09] Warrior
What does all these numbers mean and what is "Total= X" and "Rank =X"?
All character match-up spreadsheet.
- Thread starter Mandy
- Start date
Wandrian
I don't know.
How most folks do matchup charts(like in this case), each character gets a part of 10 for their matchup against another character. More than 5 implies they have an advantage, less disadvantage. Rank is how well they do overall against all the cast.
- Moderator
- #23
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
This is so damn subjective. I don't agree with a lot of stuff there about the characters I play.
lolo
[11] Champion
So according to this chart and Belial's I'm playing a mid sucky tier char and players feel like they are facing a top tier char... Nice.
Is like Omega's top tiers chars and mine, are not in this top tier list, damn.
Is like Omega's top tiers chars and mine, are not in this top tier list, damn.
Robin
[09] Warrior
According to this, aPat is better than Natsu. I'm not sure I would agree with this or maybe it's just me who tend to use my Natsu better than aPat :P
crow_winters
[11] Champion
I'm not sure I understand the deriesion over a matchup chart that is like 85% incomplete.
It's being made. Don't get angry. Voice your thoughts, post your reasons. It's WIP, now is the exact time to...
CARVE YOUR OWN FATE
etc.
It's being made. Don't get angry. Voice your thoughts, post your reasons. It's WIP, now is the exact time to...
CARVE YOUR OWN FATE
etc.
- Moderator
- #27
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
For example, why is Aeon vs Mitsu 4/6? Because Aeon is "bad" and Mitsu is "good"?
crow_winters
[11] Champion
It's because Mitsu punishes some of Aeon's main tools for baskets full of damage, and Aeon does not do the same to him. Mitsu also has better mid range AND close range poking/containment/pressure tools, and better mixups (obviously, since he's built around the 2KB cannon. It's just unfourtante he also does everything else better then Aeon for no reason) Really it's just Mitsu 6B9 (i14, 39) and 236B (i16, 42, BE Knockdown), which does way too much damage and really, really matters here. The only things Aeon does better then Mitsu is 66A (and honestly, Mitsu anti step is no slouch, it's just aeon 66a > mitsu 44a in terms of mid horizontals only because of speed, but mitsu 44A knocks down on CH... like Aeon's 66A used to :( ) and Aeon's throw game is better.
Mitsu punishing Aeon-
Aeon 3B/3A/1A/33B > Mitsu 6B9
Aeon 1K, 44K > Mitsu 236B
Aeon 11B > Mitsu 66K/WS K
Mitsu has REALLY strong punishes vs. 8B+K, and can option select close and mid range block, but has to guess at far range like a normal person. He also has little things like getting slightly higher damage punishes on 2K thanks to WS K, but that's just really a general annoyance more then anything.
Aeon Punishing Mitsu-
Mitsu 3B > Aeon 4B (i am pretty sure pushout makes 66K not work, and there's that whole 3B BE stuff)
Mitsu 2KB > Aeon 3B
And ontop of that, things that are "special" about Aeon that are still safe (1B, 4B+K), Mitsu not only has better versions of, but his moveset makes them largely irrlevent (4B+K avoids very little, Mitsu is mostly a mid monster anyways). Aeon also has very little he can do about 33B except guess block on the second hit.. in a lot of ways, Mitsu 33B is just a really good version of Aeon 66B.
You could say "Mitsu is better" and it still be a good summary, lol, but that really applies to most of the mid/low tiers in the game and dosen't do much for the actual matchup discussion, I admit.
Mitsu punishing Aeon-
Aeon 3B/3A/1A/33B > Mitsu 6B9
Aeon 1K, 44K > Mitsu 236B
Aeon 11B > Mitsu 66K/WS K
Mitsu has REALLY strong punishes vs. 8B+K, and can option select close and mid range block, but has to guess at far range like a normal person. He also has little things like getting slightly higher damage punishes on 2K thanks to WS K, but that's just really a general annoyance more then anything.
Aeon Punishing Mitsu-
Mitsu 3B > Aeon 4B (i am pretty sure pushout makes 66K not work, and there's that whole 3B BE stuff)
Mitsu 2KB > Aeon 3B
And ontop of that, things that are "special" about Aeon that are still safe (1B, 4B+K), Mitsu not only has better versions of, but his moveset makes them largely irrlevent (4B+K avoids very little, Mitsu is mostly a mid monster anyways). Aeon also has very little he can do about 33B except guess block on the second hit.. in a lot of ways, Mitsu 33B is just a really good version of Aeon 66B.
You could say "Mitsu is better" and it still be a good summary, lol, but that really applies to most of the mid/low tiers in the game and dosen't do much for the actual matchup discussion, I admit.
youngfox
[10] Knight
how the heck does raph lose to maxi and lexia?
crow_winters
[11] Champion
Well, I couldn't find anything on the Maxi matchup thread, but the Lexia forum has posted in about 10 different places about how they feel the match up is in her advantage due to the effectiveness of 4A+B/TC/AA and 6KK punishes on his movelist. No one there or here has contested that, and the Raph forum has no info on the matchup whatsoever. I can't speak for either side, that's just from what research I (and safe to assume, Mandy) did from the only information available.
Looks like a Raph player needs to step up and drop some knowledge if it's wrong! :)
I also really don't think it's productive to think of 6-4 as "loses to". I think 10-0 is "loses to", and that dosen't exist in SC5.. yet.
Pyrrus
[14] Master
Can someone tell me how this "match-up" thing works?
Solo
[14] Master
The match up chart shows the odds of winning a match of with said character against another character if the two players play perfectly. 5-5=even, 6-4=slight favor, 7-3=You have the advantage, 8-2=Fuck your oppoent, they're going to lose, 9-1=If they win, you suck, 10-0=It's impossible for your opponent to win.
Pyrrus
[14] Master
Oh thats simple~ Thanks~ ^^
youngfox
[10] Knight
@ crowwinters i think the maxi MU is 6-4 raph due to hpw relativly easy it is to keep him out, as well as backstep being a general answer to his stance game.
As for lexia well being able to punish at -14 isnt that big a deal against raph. the biggest move that is -14 is raph 3b but the push back on it makes punishing w 6kk unreliable. Same goes w a lot of raph moves. I dont see how 4A+B helps her since it primarily a horizontal GI against a vertical heavy character. Finally TC's being affective against raph is a misconception cuz people assume raph players are suppose to abuse 6bb when that isnt the case. Even against prep most TC's in the game raph can hard counter for about 78 dmg. in all honesty the mixture between his keep away and her mix up games probably puts it 5-5 until i see some crazy stuff. especially since both characters are exactly hard hitters.
Ill try to get some more raph representation up in here cuz this was just a quick write up b4 class
As for lexia well being able to punish at -14 isnt that big a deal against raph. the biggest move that is -14 is raph 3b but the push back on it makes punishing w 6kk unreliable. Same goes w a lot of raph moves. I dont see how 4A+B helps her since it primarily a horizontal GI against a vertical heavy character. Finally TC's being affective against raph is a misconception cuz people assume raph players are suppose to abuse 6bb when that isnt the case. Even against prep most TC's in the game raph can hard counter for about 78 dmg. in all honesty the mixture between his keep away and her mix up games probably puts it 5-5 until i see some crazy stuff. especially since both characters are exactly hard hitters.
Ill try to get some more raph representation up in here cuz this was just a quick write up b4 class
Sett
[14] Master
So is this the 'legal' way of talking about tiers now?
Wandrian
I don't know.
You had to use the T-word -.-
- Thread starter
- #37
Mandy
Yes, a guy.
Tiers are rather subjective whereas match-ups are objective.
Tier lists lead to a lot of "Mitsu is top-tier, 2KB is OP, he needs nerfs!"
Match-up charts help to encourage healthy debate as opposed to pointless arguments:
You can see here crow winters was able to give us an in-depth reasoning as to why he feels Aeon is imperiled in the Mitsu match-up. Solid information, good arguments, all substantiated. Arguing tier is a much more difficult and biased argument to make, and should really take pages of information to convey a point effectively and pages more to then compare that character to every other character in the games; something that we see never happens on any tier discussions posted here.
Match-up lists encourage more responsible debate; you only have one character to side with, in this case Aeon vs. Mitsurugi, and ideally you'll be using evidence from your experiences combined with community criticism to reach a reasonable conclusion. As I said before, push comes to shove I take averages.
Thank you again to all contributing to this discussion. The list is still incomplete; please disregard the totals and ranks at the moment, 10's and 0's are just blank columns that haven't been filled in by macros. aPat has a preemptive rank 1 while all the other totals get posted.
Jimbonator
[14] Master
I've made slight notes on Ezio match ups if anyone cares, Juece may be a better reference point than me though.
georgenymous
[09] Warrior
I see that Siegfried has a slightly favorable matchup vs. the siblings (pat and pyr). Could you give some insight on that? I always thought that Pyrrha had a slight advantage against him, and I just want to know with Pat because I main him. Thanks!
crow_winters
[11] Champion
I'm really curious about this too, because Sieg has had bad matchups versus the greek archtype in pretty much every game since his inception. Would love to see what some Friends of Sieg think of those numbers.
I can actually kind of understand Pat because his 236B really isn't a classic punishing 236B like Pyr's is, but Pyr's... is. And that's what has always caused Sieg's nightmares in the past.