Alpha Patroklos matchups discussion

Theo said:
Ok, I know that I'm gonna be the n00b sounding person on this page, please don't hammer me, but can someone please explain to me the terms you are using? Such as: "BE" and "33B's" and "3K"
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http://8wayrun.com/threads/basic-notations-and-terminology.58/

I just realised that thread may be a little difficult to read straight off the bat.

But essentially,
-BE is brave edge, or an A+B+K input after certain moves.
-33B would refer to hitting the directional button associated with 3 (In this case, the forward down diagonal) twice then hitting B.
-3K follows the same rule as above.
 
Could someone be a dear and give tips regarding Mitsurugi fights? I just choke so much in them.

66BB - What do I do against this?
4B - How do I punish it? More importantly, is it even steppable on reaction?
 
Reidrum said:
Could someone be a dear and give tips regarding Mitsurugi fights? I just choke so much in them.

66BB - What do I do against this?
4B - How do I punish it? More importantly, is it even steppable on reaction?
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The second hit of his 66bb is steppable no matter if he delays it or not; you can step to his left and hard punish with 1b:b combo of your choice. The problem is that a halfway decent player will mix it up with something like 66b --> 2a or grab or something like that. Still, stepping up (always 'up') and then doing 2A will beat all of that and except it and the second hit of 66BB will whiff if he decides to do that. Of course, if you have some superpro, they might do some ish left 66B --> JG/GI/Jump attack, but I wouldn't think too hard about that.

4B isn't too much of a problem because 33b (which I whore out) will catch it if you anticipate it. If you get caught with your panties down, though, just quickstep and then hold the direction you're going in and then punish it with 33b after he completes the strike.

On-topic. I honestly think the only bad matchups aPat has are Leixia and Natsu (haven't played against Leixia...or much Natsu post-patch as I haven't played much of the game at all). Mits or Pyrrha's can be pretty frustrating too but I think they're still even because of the way I feel the match has to be played by those characters in order to make it hard.

More than anything, you have to deal with the players' mindsets going about playing against aPat and trying to exploit his weaknesses (weak right side, weak guage damage, mediocre pokes). Still, if you're playing the character, that's something you're just going to have to deal with (and, luckily, prepatch, he has many of the tools needed to deal with all of that).With 33b and good punishment, he takes away a lot of stuff from many of the characters and forces them to play more passively. Still, all his weaknesses coupled with very risky (but very good) options make it really about good reads and outplaying your opponent if they know him well.
 
LostProvidence said:
On-topic. I honestly think the only bad matchups aPat has are Leixia and Natsu (haven't played against Leixia...or much Natsu post-patch as I haven't played much of the game at all).
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Nah.
Leixa even prepatch was Alpha's.
Natsu was kinda even. Principally because Alpha punished her for 90+ dmg out of her unsafe moves (apart from A+B) and made her have perfect zoning (backash into NH 33B being 85 damage without clean hit).

Now Leixa is still Alpha. And Natsu still has the same problems without the same damage. Still a good character though.

Leixa :
- learn to sidestep 66BB and 66BbB
- learn to JG 66AA
- learn to JG 33BB
- learn to punish her
- And if you have CE she will need to reduce a lot of her command list.

Natsu :
- Problems are : her 66A, 22K, A+B.
- Abuse 4K/3K/236~3A.
- Punish her 66B for max damage, and mind game her 66B4 for maximum damage as well
 
33BB is pretty easily punishable with double JF Twister. I think it's actually easier than JG in this case.

Frame Data says her 66AA is -12, so this one should also be punishable but much harder and not worth since JG this move is so easy.
 
Actually, Alpha is the only character in this game who can punish Leixia 66AA at all meterlaess, lol.
But yeah, launch on JG.
 
Maxou said:
Nah.
Leixa even prepatch was Alpha's.
Natsu was kinda even. Principally because Alpha punished her for 90+ dmg out of her unsafe moves (apart from A+B) and made her have perfect zoning (backash into NH 33B being 85 damage without clean hit).

Now Leixa is still Alpha. And Natsu still has the same problems without the same damage. Still a good character though.

Leixa :
- learn to sidestep 66BB and 66BbB
- learn to JG 66AA
- learn to JG 33BB
- learn to punish her
- And if you have CE she will need to reduce a lot of her command list.

Natsu :
- Problems are : her 66A, 22K, A+B.
- Abuse 4K/3K/236~3A.
- Punish her 66B for max damage, and mind game her 66B4 for maximum damage as well
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I'll concede that there's a bit I prob don't know about the Leixia matchup, but I think I probably know more about the aPat vs. Natsu match than anyone else. The problem is actually that she can kill any type of offense that he can mount, even when he has the advantage with 22a, aa, and a+b. His only saving grace is that he has 3k, and 2a, in my opinion. Still, you have to be relatively close for 3k and 2a to matter (she can backstep them after almost anything) and her 22a even causes his 4k to whiff after lots of stuff or even at random times (test yourself with 22a to his right and then left side - a setup Hawkeye likes to do). She reduces his movelist rather well; you can try to play around it or play with it, but either way will lead you to turtling and/or becoming predictable. Speaking of turtling, I failed to mention that her 22a and even catch him backstepping most of the time.

I haven't played that match at all post-patch because I've been working out Viola but, prepatch, where she matched his damage (on stuff like wrK, which lead to the reverse mixup above), was faster, and more evasive, that match was stupid.

Also, with all this theory talk, until someone manages to punish every -13 and -12 attack with double JF Twister, it will never be a factor; people will continue to whore out -14 launchers even because you'll probably only punish them as hard as you can maybe 20% of the time (if they're being predictable on top of that).
 
LostProvidence said:
Also, with all this theory talk, until someone manages to punish every -13 and -12 attack with double JF Twister, it will never be a factor; people will continue to whore out -14 launchers even because you'll probably only punish them as hard as you can maybe 20% of the time (if they're being predictable on top of that).
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Erm... what can I say... ha ha ha... this is akward....
EDIT : Erm... I never talked about JFO JFO out of i12 or i13 moves... but -14 moves can be easily punished by JFO or 44B+K (BE or not).... This is the basics...
 
Dunno what's so awkward about it; people already miss twister punishes on -16 attacks and what not due to blockstun and buffering; I wouldn't be afraid of throwing something like Leixia, Mits, or Cervy's (or a bunch of other characters') 3b out against an aPat player because, 9 times out of ten, they're going for an aa punish (which he rarely even gets because the range of his aa is ass and so many attacks in this game have decent pushback). And, on top of that, if you do miss the timing for twister, your opponent gets to punish with their movelist.

Woahhzz is trying to be a punishment beast, but I think that type of playing leads you to being way too defensively minded and will inevitably cause you to have a lapse in judgement (at least with twister's input).
 
LostProvidence said:
Dunno what's so awkward about it; people already miss twister punishes on -16 attacks and what not due to blockstun and buffering; I wouldn't be afraid of throwing something like Leixia, Mits, or Cervy's (or a bunch of other characters') 3b out against an aPat player because, 9 times out of ten, they're going for an aa punish (which he rarely even gets because the range of his aa is ass and so many attacks in this game have decent pushback). And, on top of that, if you do miss the timing for twister, your opponent gets to punish with their movelist.

Woahhzz is trying to be a punishment beast, but I think that type of playing leads you to being way too defensively minded and will inevitably cause you to have a lapse in judgement (at least with twister's input).
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If you can make a 44B+K punishment, why bother with umbrella.... It is akward because I don't understand how you can say that with a straight face... Punishment allows for at least 70 easy damage (depending on your skill ofc... I always go for 44B+K BE JFU JFU for 93dmg but well since your Alpha doesn't seem to use JFU you should at least take the 70 garanteed damage...), it is a very nice way to deal damage (and very good damage) and reduce their options...

I wouldn't be afraid of throwing something like Leixia, Mits, or Cervy's (or a bunch of other characters') 3b out against an aPat player because, 9 times out of ten, they're going for an aa punish
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9 times out of 10, if you do that against someone who trained the punish, you will get 44B+K BE punished.
Cervy's 3B is not to be AA punished, 2A works better, with better range...
Mitsu is a peculiar case because he can do 3B BE but STILL he will get 44B+K BE punished if he doesn't do it.

PS : 9 times out of 10, the Alpha Patroklos sucks then. This is why it is akward.
1) Why bother doing JFU when you can make 44B+K BE... Neverwhere you will see I posted something along the lines of "let's JFU -12 or -13 moves!" ....
2) Punishment IS a very basic of Alpha gameplay...


Woahhzz is trying to be a punishment beast, but I think that type of playing leads you to being way too defensively minded and will inevitably cause you to have a lapse in judgement (at least with twister's input). .
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Good thinking of Woahhzz...
Don't worry about being too defensively minded, being able to limit your oponent weapons is just way too good to forget about punishment...

PS : More about 44B+K BE :
44B+K BE JFU is garanteed for 70 dmg.
44B+K BE JFU 214~2K is garanteed for 79 damage - can only be techrolled backward at max range of 44B+K BE. 236~3B is then tech trap.
This being without clean hit. No skill combos.
You tell me : why shouldn't you punish?
 
Maxou said:
If you can make a 44B+K punishment, why bother with umbrella.... It is akward because I don't understand how you can say that with a straight face... Punishment allows for at least 70 easy damage (depending on your skill ofc... I always go for 44B+K BE JFU JFU for 93dmg but well since your Alpha doesn't seem to use JFU you should at least take the 70 garanteed damage...), it is a very nice way to deal damage (and very good damage) and reduce their options...



9 times out of 10, if you do that against someone who trained the punish, you will get 44B+K BE punished.
Cervy's 3B is not to be AA punished, 2A works better, with better range...
Mitsu is a peculiar case because he can do 3B BE but STILL he will get 44B+K BE punished if he doesn't do it.

PS : 9 times out of 10, the Alpha Patroklos sucks then. This is why it is akward.
1) Why bother doing JFU when you can make 44B+K BE... Neverwhere you will see I posted something along the lines of "let's JFU -12 or -13 moves!" ....
2) Punishment IS a very basic of Alpha gameplay...




Good thinking of Woahhzz...
Don't worry about being too defensively minded, being able to limit your oponent weapons is just way too good to forget about punishment...

PS : More about 44B+K BE :
44B+K BE JFU is garanteed for 70 dmg.
44B+K BE JFU 214~2K is garanteed for 79 damage - can only be techrolled backward at max range of 44B+K BE. 236~3B is then tech trap.
This being without clean hit. No skill combos.
You tell me : why shouldn't you punish?
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Why are you bringing up 44b+k? I was specifically talking about twister punishment because they brought it up (I'll be more specific as to who I'm talking to, though I figured you would know since, as you said, you didn't bring it up), which is why I mentioned those launchers and they're risk vs. reward spefically . The whole point of all this was that, while twister/jf twister can punish -12 and -13 attacks, it's not too reliable because of the different windows in which you have to do it. Of course, some attacks in that range are easier to punish than others.

Also, I don't use 44B+K for punishment at all (though I did drop aPat during the first couple of weeks of the game). I only use twister/umbrella for punishment because it'll punish anywhere 44b+k would, doesn't miss when your opponent is TC (with that said, it's hard, for me personally, to switch between the mindset of punishing with twister and 44b+k on the go), and it reaches further (which is good against attacks like Natsu's 66b). No doubt that 44B+K is good, it's just not my thing. Look forward to a reply, even though I don't know what you're trying to argue anymore.
 
236 4B+K BE is no harder to do than 214 3a:B and it nets you significantly more damage if the recovery allows for it - should be used tbh.
 
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