[ARCHIVE] Siegfried Pre-Release Discussion
- Thread starter Windstar
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Bastet
[12] Conqueror
The revenge!
http://fr.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/b/304956439
Look at that epic match at 0.30.40
Awesome stuff, here's what a stepping Sieggy does!!!
Also, check 34.16... Is he trying to do 3A, but cancels it and does 88A? It is very confusing to me lol.
http://fr.twitch.tv/iplaywinner/b/304956439
Look at that epic match at 0.30.40
Awesome stuff, here's what a stepping Sieggy does!!!
Also, check 34.16... Is he trying to do 3A, but cancels it and does 88A? It is very confusing to me lol.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
Not very fond of that Siegs playstyle, that flapjack into 2A+B is very nice if its guaranteed, tho.
The 3A cancel into 22_88A is 3AA.
The 3A cancel into 22_88A is 3AA.
Solf
[10] Knight
Everything's been said, so I'm just gonna add that Requiem's 2P version looks gorgeous.
Jink
[10] Knight
I think its like in SC3 where after FlapJack, the rival's recovery was long enough for Sig to force mix-up with 2A+B & 6B & etc..
I hope that at least FlapJack is like that in SC5.
It would be nice if 3AA had an 3A:A to use both swings as string attacks.
Nightblade
is SUPERCHARGED!!
As for post-flapjack followups, I've never seen anything but 2A+B even attempted, and in every instance I've seen it, it's hit. Has anyone else? I feel like unless you have to force an early tech like Asta 63214B throw, the 'mix up' would be too telegraphed. Just speculation on my part, though.
Jink
[10] Knight
In SC3, getting grab by FlapJack didn't lead into Ukemi, or Ukemi was not possible after KD from FlapJack. The "Off-input" frames lasts long enough that the rival who tried to side or back roll after Downed by FlapJack, would get hit by 2A+B. Rivals could just stand up with G or G2. After a couple of 2A+B landed, rivals would stand up G2, that's where I'd used 6B.
Maybe the players who got hit by 2A+B was because they where trying to roll away to get up. Maybe 2A+B is guarantee after FlapJack, but IMO that would be too easy for Sig.
Another thing: Anyone has notice that SCH'B sometimes makes a blue flash & slight lighting effect on right hand? I think maybe that's the Clean-Hit thingy in SC4. It kinda looks like some of SC4 Xianhua's attacks that also flashes blue.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
SCH B has been confirmed to have clean hit properties a while ago.
AKNova7
[10] Knight
You're right, in a way. However, the problem is, there *is* no time to waste. With a once every six month basis for patching, a character with a range advantage that deploys powerful mix-up game like Siegfried in a weapon-based fighting game that puts a great precedence on spacing, the kind of 50/50 mix-up that, for instance, RSH grants, which was, a needless guessing game to begin with is absurd.
Furthermore, Siegfried is the one character where if you don't know almost as much about him as your opponent, and you don't have enough range, you just get decimated. Because while he's not amazingly fast, the game mechanics work for him. Going into Chief Hold and have nearly AA fast moves, RSH and having legitimate 50/50 online decimation style mix-up, and even SSH for Combo Bridge/Spacing, there isn't a single thing Siegfried doesn't have. Range, Impacts, Dodge Moves, Mix-Up, Stance Speed, Ground Hits, you name it, he has it. And, in terms of tournament play, how, in any way, is that fun?
Unless you'd like to get destroyed by Hilde for another year.
Solo
[14] Master
You're forgetting Sieg's fundamental flaw. He's unsafe as hell, a rise/reward character. He has all those mixup options because if he is blocked he will most likely get punished. Sieg lacks step speed also, the slow backstep makes it difficult to play the spacing game at times. I don't see how he's broken for finally getting more reward for his risky playstyle.
Edit: I'm sure another one of you guys will explain this much better than me, back me up :D
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
The whole reason for a six month basis IS to allow players to work out counters to characters and strategies, so they dont get changed needlessly. Sieg had all those things you mentioned in SC3 and SC4 as well, strange nobodys been calling him OP back then. You mention lack of knowledge and that is exactly why he seems so overwhelming in your eyes.
Things you'll like to know:
- Step RSH to his right
- while SCH has fast moves, there is also not a single transition with positive frames on block to go into it, leading to interrupts
- "online" mix-ups don't matter
- all his attributes and reverse mix-up moves have risks associated with them that their generic labels don't cover, which is why he's generally considered a balls-to-the-wall high-risk/medium-to-high-reward character
- "how is that fun?", play against Sophitia, Amy, Hilde etc with Sieg. I ask you: "How is that fun?"
Hilde was a horrific atrocity visited upon this community. There are chars that come close to her in terms of ridiculousness like SC 3 X and Soph, but to liken her to Sieg, ANY Sieg is just plain ridiculous.
Things you'll like to know:
- Step RSH to his right
- while SCH has fast moves, there is also not a single transition with positive frames on block to go into it, leading to interrupts
- "online" mix-ups don't matter
- all his attributes and reverse mix-up moves have risks associated with them that their generic labels don't cover, which is why he's generally considered a balls-to-the-wall high-risk/medium-to-high-reward character
- "how is that fun?", play against Sophitia, Amy, Hilde etc with Sieg. I ask you: "How is that fun?"
Hilde was a horrific atrocity visited upon this community. There are chars that come close to her in terms of ridiculousness like SC 3 X and Soph, but to liken her to Sieg, ANY Sieg is just plain ridiculous.
Solo
[14] Master
Thanks for backing me. :D
- Moderator
- #153
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
Man I love this kind of stuff. Sacharja pretty much hit the nail on the head, but I can't help myself.
No, the guessing game is definitely needed, because that's how Siegfried gets insanely good damage. Realize that if he guesses wrong, he's not off scot-free; he gets to eat a rather hefty punish. Not to mention, his ranged tools are not great damage dealers in the first place - 6B and agA do alright, but 6B is linear and agA is high, and spacing is extremely limiting as to which one he will do. B6 is also weak, and if you block it, the ball is in your court to close the distance.
Only one of the entrances into SCH - WS (B) ~ allows SCH A and SCH K to come out fast on block. 3(B) and 11(B) are both terrible entrances into SCH on block, and you WILL get stuffed. SRSH's entire purpose is the 50/50 - it's not "online decimation" style, the purpose is to force your opponent to essentially call a coin toss, and the loser eats a lot of damage. SSH is good for creating spacing, but if someone anticipates your SSH A+B, it's not hard at all to jump it and be right in your face, ready to kick your ass.
Range, more or less, but I already explained the caveat above. Impacts, not really. They FINALLY fixed SBH's aGI problem, but that's only useful for getting yourself out of reverse mix-ups. He has essentially ONE heavy hitting mix-up, two if you count Grab/1B shenanigans. Stance speed is extremely dependent on what move he used to enter stance. He does have a good oki game, though. Help me understand, though - what's wrong with a character having tools? It makes tournament play fun because it's no longer a stupid uphill battle fighting brainless punishes to stance setups - using Siegfried's tools now makes both you and your opponent active in choosing their offensive and defensive options.
You're comparing apples and octopuses here. This is just wrong.
The thing that really gets me on this, is that you admit that you get decimated if you don't know anything about Siegfried - but this isn't exclusive to him. If you don't know anything about Voldo, 3BB is going to eat you and your Soul Gauge alive. If you don't know anything about Sophitia, you'll eat TAS B after TAS B. The difference between Siegfried and these characters, though, is that many of their tools don't suddenly become ineffective once the opponent knows what's up. With Siegfried, the knowledge that all you have to do to beat 3(B) on block is to mash out your fastest move makes him a lot less intimidating, and a lot less dangerous.
No, the guessing game is definitely needed, because that's how Siegfried gets insanely good damage. Realize that if he guesses wrong, he's not off scot-free; he gets to eat a rather hefty punish. Not to mention, his ranged tools are not great damage dealers in the first place - 6B and agA do alright, but 6B is linear and agA is high, and spacing is extremely limiting as to which one he will do. B6 is also weak, and if you block it, the ball is in your court to close the distance.
Only one of the entrances into SCH - WS (B) ~ allows SCH A and SCH K to come out fast on block. 3(B) and 11(B) are both terrible entrances into SCH on block, and you WILL get stuffed. SRSH's entire purpose is the 50/50 - it's not "online decimation" style, the purpose is to force your opponent to essentially call a coin toss, and the loser eats a lot of damage. SSH is good for creating spacing, but if someone anticipates your SSH A+B, it's not hard at all to jump it and be right in your face, ready to kick your ass.
Range, more or less, but I already explained the caveat above. Impacts, not really. They FINALLY fixed SBH's aGI problem, but that's only useful for getting yourself out of reverse mix-ups. He has essentially ONE heavy hitting mix-up, two if you count Grab/1B shenanigans. Stance speed is extremely dependent on what move he used to enter stance. He does have a good oki game, though. Help me understand, though - what's wrong with a character having tools? It makes tournament play fun because it's no longer a stupid uphill battle fighting brainless punishes to stance setups - using Siegfried's tools now makes both you and your opponent active in choosing their offensive and defensive options.
You're comparing apples and octopuses here. This is just wrong.
The thing that really gets me on this, is that you admit that you get decimated if you don't know anything about Siegfried - but this isn't exclusive to him. If you don't know anything about Voldo, 3BB is going to eat you and your Soul Gauge alive. If you don't know anything about Sophitia, you'll eat TAS B after TAS B. The difference between Siegfried and these characters, though, is that many of their tools don't suddenly become ineffective once the opponent knows what's up. With Siegfried, the knowledge that all you have to do to beat 3(B) on block is to mash out your fastest move makes him a lot less intimidating, and a lot less dangerous.
- Moderator
- #154
Dr. Hates
Jerk.
SIEGFRIED IS OP. HE NEEDS A BAN OR SC5 WILL BE CRAP.
AKNova7
[10] Knight
Yes, I understand why the patch schedule is the duration it is, especially because, as you did, I watched the interview where we received that information. Yes, I know you can step his RSH to his right, I know about the SCH weaknesses (excluding WR B @ -1) . However, the still remaining pure 50/50 against anyone that doesn't have a fast enough rising move to hit Siegfried before RSH K or B can still destroy you pretty easily. But, perhaps my personal character is just an absolutely awful match-up to Siegfried. As is Siegfried to characters with fast punishes from Standing or FC...
Like Cassandra and Sophitia.
- Moderator
- #156
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
You're not supposed to interrupt SRSH if you're subjected to the mix-up from a disadvantageous situation, like from a knockdown, e.g. 3(B) ~ SCH 6B+K. You don't have the frames to do that, and you are SUPPOSED to guess in that situation. That is your punishment for being hit in the first place. However, it's a 50/50 - you still have a chance not only to guess right and negate any further damage, but you'll also be able to punish him as well. You're mistaken as to assuming the 50/50 itself is unfair or broken in any way. It is a wholly intentional idea and the entire purpose of SRSH, which you seem to have missed.
Who is your main, anyway? Maybe I can help you out a bit with anti-Siegfried.
Sacharja
[12] Conqueror
I didn't even see your post.
Nevermind, Hates obliterated my argument with allcaps. I mean the guy writes a column, he cannot possibly be wrong.
Solo
[14] Master
Lol I was one post above you man. While I didn't get technical about Sieg's mixes I attempted to explain the flaw in Sieg's design. That's why I said that, I knew someone would answer in a much better fashion.
AKNova7
[10] Knight
Edit: Had to remove original quote tag to fix formatting.
I'll be fair, perhaps it's me, perhaps it's just not the style of the game, but is it really a good thing in any way for fighting games to be a rolling of the dice? I mean, maybe it's a POV few share, but there's skill, there's brains, but when you add luck into the picture, it seems like a mechanic that cannot be countered by skill, only luck. Now, I'll be honest, that's not completely true, but at the same time, most of the reason I have to dislike RSH is the similarity of the start up of the animation. If you pay attention to the Head Line of Siegfried, they both drop during the start up, so many times when you think the opponent is doing RSH K, it's actually RSH B, and by the time the animation similarity stops, it's just a little too late. If the animations weren't so similar during start up, the mix-up would definitely be more manageable, especially now that CE's get involved and the sheer damage that can come from just a little bad luck against Siegfried in V.
I can agree with this. When someone goes into Side-Hold, it is generally safe to Fuzzy Guard for the mid or even attack if you have an insanely fast way to interrupt.
The problem isn't a character having tools, it's the plethora of tools a character can possess. The sheer number of tools that he himself has been infused with is the problem. Fast Sidesteps to Chief Hold, a Base Stance that really makes you pay for Horizontals, and the ability to go between them as well with the pressing of a button. It also puts the character you're playing against on defense in a lot of ways as well to avoid getting decimated.
Sort of, I get what you're saying about Voldo, but what's actually worse about Voldo is his various Super-Crouches and flailing like dodging moves that he posses that make various Horizontal Mids miss. And, see, my true fear, in the next game is, sure, in IV, you take decent damage after guessing wrong on a mix-up, but add CE's to the flip of a coin, and you'll find yourself losing matches from this pretty frequently, especially because there's no way to limit the amount of times the mix-up can be performed, and therefore, with enough 50/50 in the hands of a good player, you eventually...will guess wrong. It's just a matter of time. These are just my concerns.
I'll be fair, perhaps it's me, perhaps it's just not the style of the game, but is it really a good thing in any way for fighting games to be a rolling of the dice? I mean, maybe it's a POV few share, but there's skill, there's brains, but when you add luck into the picture, it seems like a mechanic that cannot be countered by skill, only luck. Now, I'll be honest, that's not completely true, but at the same time, most of the reason I have to dislike RSH is the similarity of the start up of the animation. If you pay attention to the Head Line of Siegfried, they both drop during the start up, so many times when you think the opponent is doing RSH K, it's actually RSH B, and by the time the animation similarity stops, it's just a little too late. If the animations weren't so similar during start up, the mix-up would definitely be more manageable, especially now that CE's get involved and the sheer damage that can come from just a little bad luck against Siegfried in V.
I can agree with this. When someone goes into Side-Hold, it is generally safe to Fuzzy Guard for the mid or even attack if you have an insanely fast way to interrupt.
The problem isn't a character having tools, it's the plethora of tools a character can possess. The sheer number of tools that he himself has been infused with is the problem. Fast Sidesteps to Chief Hold, a Base Stance that really makes you pay for Horizontals, and the ability to go between them as well with the pressing of a button. It also puts the character you're playing against on defense in a lot of ways as well to avoid getting decimated.
Sort of, I get what you're saying about Voldo, but what's actually worse about Voldo is his various Super-Crouches and flailing like dodging moves that he posses that make various Horizontal Mids miss. And, see, my true fear, in the next game is, sure, in IV, you take decent damage after guessing wrong on a mix-up, but add CE's to the flip of a coin, and you'll find yourself losing matches from this pretty frequently, especially because there's no way to limit the amount of times the mix-up can be performed, and therefore, with enough 50/50 in the hands of a good player, you eventually...will guess wrong. It's just a matter of time. These are just my concerns.
Nightblade
is SUPERCHARGED!!
I agree, that would be too easy. I'd like more for it to be a mixup. If this IS guaranteed, I will begin to think they really did give Sig a little too much in this game so far, lol. Well, I suppose it is a blockable, breakable throw. If you get hit by it, you fucked up.
Also, wtf? Is AK talking about pre-scv Siegfried? I don't mean any disrespect, but are you in your right mind dude?
Screw theory fighting man. Get in there and play the damn game. See you at the tourneys.
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