Astaroth: Sc5 Wishlist

lobo

Luminario
as it stands, 66b is STILL his best punisher in many cases. if 66b were a mid/sp. mid then he would be overpowered. forced 66b/throw mixup would be broken given the damage of his command throws. i like having to differentiate between punishers as opposed to having one be-all-end-all punisher. and his JF throws? really? not only do they showcase execution, but they are his only real way to force ducking and make bullrush worthwhile.

honestly i think that asty is one of the most well balanced and awesome playing characters in the game. i wouldn't recommend changing a single thing.
 

IdleMind

BANNED FOREVER
If I were to modify if in any one single way; it would be to give him a move which had a modifier on crouching opponents. If I had to nominate a move he already had; I'd say 3A+B or 3A The modifier I would suggest would be to stand them up and put Asta at frame advantage, lets say +3-5ish.

That is quite literally all I want, and only because I feel that his current options to discourage random ducking are not good enough. The moment you have ceded to not attack Astaroth and "stand still"; it's my opinion you have made a mistake and should not have one option that is so overwhelmingly good when you have made that mistake.

I would also like his B+G throws to default to air-throw as well, to discourage random jump move spam, but I think that is asking for too much.

-Idle
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
@doc.

First, how would you "nerf" his throws then? ´Cause If you do any more damage to his throws than taking away the jf-versions, than those would be the worst Asta-cm-throws in SC-history!!

And like lobo said, 66b like was in SCII or SCIII is to strong! Imo was SCIII Asta ridicilous/retarded to play, but not SCIV Asta. SCIV Asta has just two balance-problems imo. The jf-cm versions and almost no good punish game(sucks almost imo).

I would personally take the jf-throws away, but nothing more. And would make 4B! actually better. More range again and more damage(about 28points). Oh, and 66B stays high but atleast it should knockdown on normal hit again, ´cause now, the move is pretty useless except for some punish-opportunities but it shouldn´t be ever again like it was in SCII or SCIII.

And that statemant comes from a player who loved! SCII 66B!
 

docvizzo

[14] Master
I never said i didnt like the idea of taking away the JF throws, they are way to easy to do,to hard to break even if you guess right...

So one option would be to take away the JFs aka increase the break window, another option would be to slightly nerf the damage to 60 each etc ( He still has huge throw range which is ten times more important than 5 or 10 dmg points imo )....

Im ok with one of them, but right now JF throw+ The range+ the Damage+tiny break window is way too much compared to the skill it takes. They are way to easy to do.

Actually a cool new Command throw that requires some skill like CS/SS would be cool, nerf the normal throws, give him better 66B and 4B, i dont care.

This way even i would like to play him, right now i think he is super boring. He needs some more depth to his gameplay. 90% of the time Mid/Throw Mixup isnt really attractive to me...
 

Foxbot

[09] Warrior
I would also like to see 66B buffed but for slightly different reasoning:
1) With 66B damage nerf and giving only +2 on hit, Asta now has no good post-GI (6G/3G) mixup to go with 66[K]. Sure, there are command throws, but sometimes you'd want other options.
2) 66B is just not good enough of a punishing move. The +2 is not a problem if66B leaves Asta closer or further away. The current 66B leaves Asta at a really awkward range. I would choose 6K and 66K over 66B to punish.
Though 66B is needed to punish specific moves such as Mitsu's RLC B.
3) I think 66B should stay being a high in order to make it not overpowered.

I have another idea where K should give + frame on hit and [K] should be a GB/GC (so + frame on block)
WS B, B+K, 3A should be made more useful somehow.
CH 6K combo should get a slight damage nerf.

By the way, SC4 throws in general are too strong. In Shenzhen we sometimes play this "no standing throws allowed" rule and it was interesting because all of a sudden I have to use a lot more 1B, 1K, and 4[A+B] mixup ( I don't and cannot play a CF game) ... actually I hope all characters would have a decent move (30 damage at least) from crouching to punish throws in SC5.

I also think Asta is a well-balanced character. SC4 Asta requires more skills to play than SC3 one, which is a good thing. SC3 Asta is at most 12 move character, but SC4 is at most a 20 move character. Of course, some people play them both as a 2-move character ...
I actually wouldn't say SC4 Asta is weaker in tier list compared to SC3 Asta.
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
@doc.

But you said that you were not sure if just taking the jf-versions would be enough. And both throws should deal 60 damage? No doc, that´s OK for the A-cm throwh, but not! for the B-cm throw ´cause that would be a gap of 20 points, not only 5 or ten.

And these throws are actually execution wise the hardest cm-throws Asta ever had(together with his SCIII version).

I don´t want ridicilous inputs like Ivy´cm-throws... lol no thanks.

And if you don´t like him the way he is now then that´s fine with me... ´Cause we have ENOUGH!! Astas in germany. :p

But yeah, better 4B and 66B( but still high)... Oh and my final wish... A better posidon tide maybe...?

@foxbot.

I agree with most of the things you said. Especially the "shitty" post Gi options Asta has in SCIV. But tier-list wise was SCIII Asta top3-top5. Thats actually better than SCIV Astas position.
 

docvizzo

[14] Master
Its funny how some people only read one sentence then make a statement, lol at the Rock comment.

Jag i think we actually agree to a certain amount. If would like to see a better PT, better 4B, 66B, but to balance it out you have to take something away and since his throws are the strongest part of his game it makes sense to me to nerf them a bit. What else is there to balance? Not much....( @NoFace, i never said he is unfair, just boring)


If 4 [ B] will be +5 with less pushback and the current throws he will be pretty damn good. I dont know if the Asta players want the same Asta om every game, but if you WANT to keep him balanced in SC5, but at the same time better 66B, 4B and PT, you have to take away some of the throws damage. Making A throw 60 DMG and B-Throw 68 or something wont make him bad :)

@damn i suck

6K (the knee), is pretty well balanced. Its steppable, its unsafe, it doesnt RO, Astas cant spam this unless its online. I would even say it could be better on NH in SC5.
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
@doc.

Like i said, for me it would be enough to take away the jf-cm throws. Even if moves like PT, 4B and 66B got buffed, i wouldn´t change any more. A cm throw 60 damage... debatable. But B cm throw must do at least about 70 to 80 damage points, or else it wouldn´t be Asta imo.

SCIV Asta is imo well made, like others mentioned. It´s just that his throws are too strong(jf), and certain moves, especially his punish-moves are to weak... Well, i guess you can´t have everything.
 

Ring

Lay still now
It was safe before 1.03 patch and people whined terribly about this move.
I don´t want ridicilous inputs like Ivy´cm-throws... lol no thanks.
Why not? It would be nice to see something that requires some skill in his arsenal, otherwise he will be known as a "mindless" character forever :P
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
It was safe before 1.03 patch and people whined terribly about this move.

Why not? It would be nice to see something that requires some skill in his arsenal, otherwise he will be known as a "mindless" character forever :P

Well, that sounds like winning with Asta requires almost no skill... You know, did you ever look closely into Astaroths eyes in the character select screen? There is no better way to find out that he actually IS! some sort of a mindless being/character. So moves that are to complex wouldn´t fit him at all. Not to mention that i prefer it that way.

BTW. 6k was prepatch -12. So not entirely safe but yeah, almost.
 

Ring

Lay still now
Well, adding something complex could make him more interesting to play, he is boring now. Not saying that he requires no skill to win, but he is easy to play and powerful. Honestly I don't think he is that far from Amy or Hilde in that regard, he can win with 2-3 moves easily. He has good risk/reward ratio, he needs to guess 2-3 times right to win.

I thought the knee was safer =/ my memory isn't fresh anymore.
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
And i don´t think he is boring... like i wrote multiple times.Imo SC shouldn´t focus on complex move inputs, like it was once(SC/SCII). But to everyone his own. And if he would be that easy to play and powerful, than there would be imo many more skilled Asta players who do very well. But to be honest, over the whole SCIV time, there were only 2!! who did pretty well with him imo.

Compare that plz to multiple! strong Ivy-players in the world and it looks a whole lot different then. :p ^^
 

Ring

Lay still now
I can compare that to Amy, everyone knows how easy and retarded she is, yet only Thugish has success with her :P I personally find bullrush, CTs and 22_88B boring, if it isn't for you when I don't know what is xD
 

JAGTHEGEMINI

[12] Conqueror
Here in Germany are at least 2 succesfull Amy´s too. But not on a level like thuggish though. And thugish still beated me and saitoh... So Amy must be even more retarded than Asta or thuggish is just that good.. Don´t know.

Oh and don´t forget dreamkiller! Learned Amy in a nutshell and did well in tourneys afaik.

And i like using only a couple of moves. Doesn´t get boring for me. ^^
 

Foxbot

[09] Warrior
Ring and Docvizzo: while I see where you're coming from, I would like to make the following points:

1) Standing throws are basically the strongest moves in the game (this is part of the reason we play this "no standing throws" rule sometimes in Shenzhen." Think about it ... roughly launcher damage, good tracking, good speed, can only be JIed, and not many characters can punish it hard (Not everyone is Cass). Asta comes under fire because his command throws do more damage as a pair and also have better range.

2) However, many characters can use throws as main mix-ups on offense. Similar to Asta's 66K/throw, Cass can BB/throw. Sieg can 3B/throw. Maxi can 3B/throw.
You can say, well Cass can play a reverse mix-up and punishing game, Sieg has a CF and stance game, and Maxi has a complicated stance game ... but Asta also has a spacing game and reverse mix-up game that people tend to forget !
Some other characters (Lizardman, Setsuka, Voldo, and Ivy) have much better lows/CF game so they can be played without throws !

3) As stated in the previous post, I think the fix is not necessarily weakening Asta's throws (though if you must, I think maybe taking 5 damage away from the B command throw would be ok), but to give each character a good WS punisher (at the very least 30 damage ... preferably close to Cervy's WS A combo) and maybe better TJ moves as well.

4) I thought about making 66K -13 so most characters can punish it, but then Asta should get buffs with his 3K, 3A, and such to make up for this.

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Unrelated to this, I hope Namco can give SC5 Asta a 33A that I'd know how to use ... no one uses that move ever ...
Asta combos should all work on Amy. I hate Amy ...

By the way, although PT tracking is bad, it is a great move already.