Balance Patch Discussion

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Mes thoughts on Raphael
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The design in this game seems to matchup with previous entries:
Low damage, weak stepkill, unimpressive frames for his speed and damage.
Good range given his speed, good pokes, mobility, swagheadwear, evasions/reverse mixup, the ability to switch between spacing and stance based rushdown/pressure.
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With the removal of step guard his previously terrible stepkill is now slightly better, however the removal of his high SG damage and the higher damage overall in SCV has hurt him at the same time.
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On Prep And Shadow Evade:
SE relies on prep pressure to draw a reaction, giving an opportunity to enter SE. The issue (which was also in SC4), is that prep lacked the ability to force the opponent to react to Prep as it has no mixup of its own, crouch guarding took away a lot of the intimidation. Some will argue that SE is the mixup, however I believe SE is more simmilar to the notion of using VE as a mixup; the feat of getting to VE/SE is difficut without entering due to an evade. This means that the power of these "mixup sub-stances" is tied to how Prep can apply pressure, the issue in SC4. In SCV SE has been condensed into a more powerful stance, yet SE itself takes 20 frames to transistion, meaning that even if the opponent is passive and blocks, they can react to SE. Either way, Prep is not capable to applying much pressure and forcing the opponent to attempt to escape or shift momentum (I'm not sure how this could be changed beyond making Prep moves more solid, increasing guard gauge damage maybe?).
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Prep: Prep can be stepped to Raphael's right, K and A which presumably are for catching step (A in particular), will both whiff, currently the best option for catching a full step is to SEA.
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SE: 20 frames of transistion is a tad excessive. Transition time reduced to 16 frames at max.
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SEA:
SEA A in SC4 was 0 on hit and +10 on block, and was available from a safer stance; if SE is to be a powerful and risky (due to transistion speed) mixup then A should stronger. Since B is a powerful tool on block and hit, and can realign to a degree to catch people who step and then guard, increasing SEA's frames on hit is also a compelling idea since if A had hit on block, B could have connected.
On block, -6 -> -3, on hit, +8 -> +9. Or on block -6 -> 0, on hit no change.
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Prep~AB/6AB:
As a reverse mixup between K, SE and BB/AB, Prep~AB can be fully stepped, ducked in anticipation and reaction ducked on block; it is countered along with K (blocking) and B (ducking). This leaves AB as a high damage (but no meter option) but risky, slower, and very short ranged alternative to BB, but one which also looses all momentum in terms of prep re-entry if blocked. In addition 6AB from neutral is one of the weaker (and on Raph this says somthing) stepkillers.
Increase tracking/hitbox and make the second hit a mid or jail on block.
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Prep~K:
The old prep~A was a mid i13,-16 with terrible damage on NH and great damage on CH, the current prep~K plays a simmilar role as the mid option in prep to punish TC/crouch guard. However prep~K is i21, -17 (with pushback, against a wall it is -19), and does mediocre damage on NH (and leaves the opponent at 0) and CH. SC4 Prep~A suffered from lame NH damage where momentum could be easily shifted by crouch guarding and taking the hit, the same issues has persisted with Prep~K, however this version is considerably slower and does less damage on CH.
Damage reverted to pre-patch 18 ->25 and frames on hit from 0 -> + 3 to +6, or damage stays constant and frames on hit increased greatly 0 -> +8 The move should give good damage on NH and CH or give good advantage on NH and CH.
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1A: Increase safety and/or damage. Increasing safety will contrast with 33B as the semi-tracking, low damage, safe low. Either way for a poke oreinted charaters this move is weak, in fact it is weak no matter how you look at it i20, -16, and negative on CH and NH.
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Cantarella Series (2_4_6_8B+K):
Currently only the side and BT ones are of any use (albeit little use), and this has been the case for the last 2 games now (and they arguably became worse in 4). First of all, these are verticals (Raph's strength), they hit 1/3: if the opponent steps to opposite side or "steps" by not stepping, they will evade the move. Even though they hit mid they are fairly slow i19, and don't have that great a range, in fact they have less range than his standard B. 6B+K is outclassed by almost every other vertical in Raph's repertoire. 4B+K is near useless, it cannot even preempt Natsu and Algol's teleports (the sword will go through them but not hit).
Track step to their respective side completly: it is a 50/50 on what is already a 50/50. If nothing else they must track their side 100%. 6B+K should stun on CH or do higher guard gauge damage, in fact, higher guard damage would work for the 2_8 versions, as it would help against opponents who step-guard given the speed of 2_8B+K. 4B+K builds better meter on whiff (15 - 20ish meter). Since the move will never hit it might as well have a use.
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66(A+B)G: Faster cancel to neutral.
The current cancel hardly worth using, and it gives no frame advantage over the regular version, in fact, it is less safe. 66A+B doesn't give crazy + frames anymore, so taking the hit is less of an issues, not to mention that it can be evaded in ways that don't facilitate a slow cancel.
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22B - Longer stun or more damage, simply due to crumple reliability issues. If the follow through is going to be "random" than more damage could help with the reliability issues.
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15. B+K/4A+B: Earlier activation, especially on B+K. i10 - i17 makes B+K far too slow to be used (and when it can be used a QS tends to give greater damage), and in addition auto evades can be hit by multihit moves/strings. Window start increased to i3/i5.
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44(B) - On a linear, lateral motion character the typical retreat and repost move should be more powerful than others, but it is not. Increase damage or safety.
 
I do not see the problem with Cervantes' aB pushout.

First, this move is -18. Block it, and many characters can launch him. -18 is very unsafe. You have to train yourself to block punish it on reaction... aB is 40ish damage and on block you get more... if you play to the matchup its not so good yes?

I'm not saying its a lousy move since it sets up the rest of the game.... but its not the pushout that makes it OP.

Almost all of cervantes' keepout moves are unsafe or bad on whiff (3A+B/3A). 3K and 6A are surprisingly bad on whiff for moves of their kind, even though both are -2 on block. aB is the worst out of all of them.

On hit it does pushout, so when you come in to throw you get aB again. So why not step back or just block? Either option will make aB extremely punishable! The riskreward isn't completely in his favour. in some instances its not good for him. at the moment, i feel that those complaining about the pushout have little-spacing sensibility. Furthermore, almost everymove has some form of pushout on hit. So nerf every move of cervantes because you have to walk in at the risk of eating aB?

In my recommendations, i did not touch the damage because he needs this move in his metagame.. i suggested that it be at i13 because it limits the shit he can punish a lot more.. but believe me, even at i13 its a great interrupter.

Shogun:

AAB is like -15, but not everyone can punish it. and it better be -15 because Natsu players are suppsed to hitconfirm it.

And natsu needs safer strings because? To suit your playstyle? I dont' know... natsu has everything that makes a good character now. Nothing much has to be touched honestly.

Even though natsu and patroklos are top tier i don't think they have to be touched much... or at all. Very good top tiers i feel
 
Alright, this thread will be locked very soon. Anyone who hasnt posted their list of changes must do so now.

After going through even first page there is way too many minor nerf suggestions which I dont think will be treated well by Namco.
Also including all the small things will make the initial vote impossible to comprehend, where my goal is to get as many voters as possible.
 
Natsu AAB is good now but I think Shogun is right at the FC A+B point, it is really useless now. This move was to get opponent that sideroll but now is only good ( and not that much ) in ch. Why I have to do FC A+B when I have WS K?
 
Cervantes is good as he is now... we should be focusing more on GODS like viola, algol, alpha and astaroth, at this rate i'm going to do as Omega... just stop playing... this game needs a reasonable patch urgent IMO.
 
Some remarks :

About Natsu :
- I'll change CH WS K properties. The move is kinda godlike atm. She has no need for so much damage out of such a semi-safe and fast starter. Perhaps change safety (from -12 to -16?) or perhaps change the combo follow up.
- Remove safe bombs.

That's all. The character seems kinda good for me, even though I don't like Natsu's gameplay.

About Viola :
- I saw someome (Hyrul) talking about 6B+K needed to have less adv. block. This is a dangerous nerf. I feel if you nerf Viola this way, this would be too much.
- Taking in consideration all the nerfs I talked about, her 66K BE and A+B BE could need a buff. Because they're completely useless atm. For exemple, 66K BE could give a ground stun giving Viola little adv. and A+B BE could give a little combo (no need for more than 60dmg, A+B BE would already be buffed if you take out her 44A delay because then A+B BE would become her safe antistep).

I feel (I can be wrong) the character would be balanced if you nerf Viola like I talked about. She would be way more interesting to play too.

About Patroklos :
- B+K nerf safety. From -14 to -17. The move is actually kinda godlike with CE. And not that hard to use at all.
- 66B nerf safety. From -2 to -8.
- CE nerf damage (from 90 to 80).

That's all. The character is kinda balanced IMO. Very well designed character.

About Yoshimitsu :
- Nerf CE (from 110 to 95).

That's all. Very well designed character IMO.

About Voldo :
- Nerf his CE damage last hit (80dmg is enough).

That's all. Very strong but very well designed character.
 
About Viola, it was to nerf hitstun frames of 6B+K to prevent 3B launch after moves like 6B, 3A..
 
Yeah, that is too much IMO. No need to overnerf the character. Viola needs to stay competitive, she needs damage too.
 
Maxou said:
Yeah, that is too much IMO. No need to overnerf the character. Viola needs to stay competitive, she needs damage too.
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yeah buy one thing is staying competitive and another is to be overwhelming powerful, viola would had fit nice in SF but not in here, not in this series, SC is as weapon based game,i don't see how algol and viola, or even zwei fit in the SC world.... those characters will never be well balanced.
 
IvanDR said:
yeah buy one thing is staying competitive and another is to be overwhelming powerful, viola would had fit nice in SF but not in here, not in this series, SC is as weapon based game,i don't see how algol and viola, or even zwei fit in the SC world.... those characters will never be well balanced.
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This has nothing to do with balancing the character. I understand you can rage about Viola, but this isn't a reason to make Viola disappear because you don't like her.
 
Ring said:
About Viola, it was to nerf hitstun frames of 6B+K to prevent 3B launch after moves like 6B, 3A..
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Maxou said:
Yeah, that is too much IMO. No need to overnerf the character. Viola needs to stay competitive, she needs damage too.
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We will be able to vote on all this soon presumably. To give my reasoning, I believe that having a completely safe chip-damage mix-up is on its own pretty powerful. So doing VS 6B+K for oki, and then getting 50% chance of bonus damage after knockdown, which is totally safe unless opponent uses GI, is a unique ability and pretty strong on its own.

Being able to do another launch combo after this safe mix-up seems to me too much. On the other side, Viola does lack threatening mid-range tools outside of 8A+B so maybe it's ok for her to have monstrous oki. But when she can do things like VS 6B+K, 66AA, and then hit-confirm B, she can also be pretty dominant from further out too.

3B is a powerful launcher that can only be punished using i14 attacks. But I don't think anyone is complaining about this. It's just the safe mix-up into launch that seems crazy. But of course I could be wrong too. Anyway the community will decide. And if it is put to Namco, PS will decide again after that.

EDIT: oh yeah btw I did suggest nerfing the blockstun too, so that you could at least attempt a JG or GI after the mix-up if you guessed right. Atm she still gets a free mix-up which is completely uncounterable even if you block the initial poke, because 6B+K traps you (I think they call it 'jails' in games like Tekken).
 
Maxou said:
This has nothing to do with balancing the character. I understand you can rage about Viola, but this isn't a reason to make Viola disappear because you don't like her.
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If nerfing and buffing have nothing to do with balancing a game/char then i think i'm in another universe! LOL, man i dont give a dime about what happens to viola, or not, and i dont say she needs to disappear from the game, but when you lose a tournament like my case when i lost in the spanish impact (2nd place) because of a broken/overpowered character in a UNPATCHED ps3, well.. you might as well want to set the place on fire.

But peace man, PS can do whatever they want if they want to make her more godlike then good, lowlife noobs like me can adapt over time.

Peace
 
Maxou said:
This has nothing to do with balancing the character. I understand you can rage about Viola, but this isn't a reason to make Viola disappear because you don't like her.
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It's not about over nerfing the char...she shouldn't be doing all that damage in the first place. Too much nerf? staying competitive? I prefer if she worked harder to get the damage she wants..not have easy access to it.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
We will be able to vote on all this soon presumably. To give my reasoning, I believe that having a completely safe chip-damage mix-up is on its own pretty powerful. So doing VS 6B+K for oki, and then getting 50% chance of bonus damage after knockdown, which is totally safe unless opponent uses GI, is a unique ability and pretty strong on its own.

Being able to do another launch combo after this safe mix-up seems to me too much. On the other side, Viola does lack threatening mid-range tools outside of 8A+B so maybe it's ok for her to have monstrous oki. But when she can do things like VS 6B+K, 66AA, and then hit-confirm B, she can also be pretty dominant from further out too.

3B is a powerful launcher that can only be punished using i14 attacks. But I don't think anyone is complaining about this. It's just the safe mix-up into launch that seems crazy. But of course I could be wrong too. Anyway the community will decide. And if it is put to Namco, PS will decide again after that.

EDIT: oh yeah btw I did suggest nerfing the blockstun too, so that you could at least attempt a JG or GI after the mix-up if you guessed right. Atm she still gets a free mix-up which is completely uncounterable even if you block the initial poke, because 6B+K traps you (I think they call it 'jails' in games like Tekken).
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You are Hyrul right? that's an honorable reasoning.
 
Maxou, your suggestions to nerfing bombs.
After you respond, this thread is closed for data collection
 
Oh yeah another thing, when PS or anyone else are looking to balance a game, they have to be a little clairvoyant, that is they have to look into the future a little, so see how players will play and what skills they will pick up not only now, but in 6 months, a year, 2 years. For all we know if the game doesn't get patched, we might have a totally new tier list in 6 months' time if we start discovering new things or getting better at JG / GI shenanigans, reflexes, combos and punishment.

It was before my time but I heard people used to think Sophie was wack in SC before they started noticing that verticals would track a lot. And in SCIV people thought Ivy was just an average character before they discovered the stance lock and the potential of Critical Finish. These examples might be wrong (I don't know cos I wasn't around) but the point is balancing a game is more than just 'fixing' things that we don't like, it's about taking potential into account, which is something I think only PS can do.

To cut a long and boring story short, I don't really care about winning an argument or being wrong or right, I just want whatever changes PS implement to be the right changes to make the game better. So if Maxou is in fact right about Viola, I'd want his changes to be implemented and not mine. That's why I attempted to give reasons for what I thought, and I hope he and some others will give some back. Because it would be real bad if we sent a list to Namco and they responded in kind, and some of the top tier characters became low tier. Very bad.
 
The thread is closing tonight.
If its closed you can still PM me your changes, but dont take too long. Once I post the vote-table there is no adding stuff.

Also, info for everyone
As of now I am finished with gathering data , unfortunately I had to cut a lot of minor and/or insignificant tweaks to keep the inital vote comprehensible
I want Namco to see A LOT of people desire a change ,and a complicated poll will not make this possible.
Thus I tried my best reasoning in putting the list together.
If your suggestions didnt make it into the list in the end, do not worry. I still offer some general changes instead that anwer the pleas of people over corresponding soul arenas.
 
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