Balance Patch Discussion

[darkfender]

patroklos (normal version) has invulnerability frames also.

Raph problem:
1) his stance should be an effective threat if entered on HIT and instead its not, this is a very complex issue and should be solved by namco herself considering how bad they did.
Any raph entering prep on hit has access only to risky mixups with little reward unless opponent really don t eat those 2 options linear and slow that requires another HUGE risk (SEB transition+linearity, or prepK:BE that is certain death for raph if blocked/crouched)

2) the lack of a strong fast mid (see pat 3B for example) makes ducking against him really effective....low risk huge reward...paired with lack of effective antistep game means that raph have to fear whiff every attack he tries hbeing vulnerable to both ducks and step is really too much and his only damage comes from highs.

3) its the only character without combos from launchers....(except 33K,BE CE that i wouldn t even consider a launcher).

4) raph is probably the character with most hitbox issues, most his NC whiffs due to pushback on hit, he often pass through opponent (voldo, patroklos expecially) his mids are jumpable (236B) or duckable (44K) the random alignment of crumple stuns (his main source of damage) are really random and depending on characters his combos becomes tec trap or plain whiffs and its really hard to react properly risking damage even on combos....

5) raph is the only character that despite being mid/low in scIV had a huge nerf in most of his moves when the game was released.....throw range, damage, tracking, mobility, frames, stance game, overall range....decreased without apparent reason...
This while suffering the new QS system AND with the enhancing of most characters frames (putting them out of his punishing tools) , pokes and range basically removing his strength.

Now only tournament players should comment this thread (actually i hope after the lock and reopen this thread is free) but the sad reality is raph is not a tournament viable character and tournament players doesn t even care for raph or, not using him, lack a deep knowledge of the character....

The proof is the proposition was to revert him prepatch (same issues but with an OP move added, making him boring as hell), to push his Backstep, and other generic things.
As i said on the other thread proposition in the community vote were put just because raph is weak but without really considering his weaknesses....(44B is a non issue comparing to the rest....).
Best comment i read was hawkeye's in his interview....namco should really admit they didn t put any effort on raph (its quite clear considering since the beginning he had major glitches on his signature moves...see 4B) probably because the game was released too early...and for that namco should work hard on raph with the same effort they had for the other characters.

Considering raph needs major rework, talking about buffs is useless.




I know most people will stop reading as they read "raphael" so you can go back to the "nerf Viola" debate. :)

P.S: also raph CE is OP if people thinks its bad is only because raph cannot afford to waste meter and the damage is not so high.

 

[taffertier]

Sorry, i know i am not in the "pro list" but i will answer with my humble opinion about some stuff said here:

@Taffertier: I disagree with your "nerf Viola will kill her" point: Viola was a good Char before this patch. After she reicived buff damage and more room for her Orb's setups, she is "better than good". As youself said: She have troubles against aPatrokos, Mitsu, etc... so, that is because the chars against she has difficulties are BETTER than her. If you want, we can talk about Raph, Z.W.E.I., Yoshi, etc... if she has a dificult time or an easy time against them... ;)


Belial, i know this is an OT, so if you think is "trash", please, delete it, you have my consent.

I never said nerfing her will kill her, just that people's reaction to her is a little over board. There have been points in the previous thread and this one about certain nerfs killing her but it wasnt me. But this match up difficulty also ties into the point you're making. Viola already has weaknesses against characters that are powerful like Mitsu and Nightmare, if she gets nerfed to the point where her risk / reward is much worse and the other characters arent nerfed or balanced properly she will wind up having a much more difficult time than before.

I know most people will stop reading as they read "raphael" so you can go back to the "nerf Viola" debate. :)

P.S: also raph CE is OP if people thinks its bad is only because raph cannot afford to waste meter and the damage is not so high.

Considering Raphael is my secondary i'm concerned about him. He was my main for a long time until his recent malfestation caused him to stand like a lump and lose most of his best moves.

Also can you please explain why his CE is OP? I always considered it average at best. The nicest thing i can say about it is that it has good start up and can combo into a lot of things. Other than that it's got pretty low damage, cant ring out, and has no tracking. It's certainly not Hilde or Elysium good. Unless it's on that level i wouldnt call it OP. Those CEs are what i would call OP, certainly not Raph's.

 

[0VincentRayne0]

U make it seem like supers are actually GOING through moves.
I've never seen a super do that personally.

i have. it was during like the first 2 weeks the game came out and i still remember it. that was the first day of me hating CEs because they completely stop time until the CE hit goes through no matter where the opponent was and i think that's stupid. make it like super street fight 4 at least. if i throw out a move that's going to hit way before my opponent does anything i should get that hit if they try a CE. I think CEs are broken because besides people like cervy and Natsu have unrealistic hit properties. it should be similar to the speed of natsu's A after you do a CE. Not have an attack 2 centimeters from your your face and you throw out a CE and it beats out the attack even though you were realistically in no position to do an attack an win.

here's what happened for me. i had Alph Pat. i didn't 44B+K (one of the fastest moves out there). someone did their CE in desperation because they were losing (another reason why i hate CEs). during the animation of their CE you could literally see my blade in their chest. it was in! not close, not around, but inside their chest. guess who won? the CE. CEs; a noobs best friend. >_>

 

[darkfender]

here's what happened for me. i had Alph Pat. i didn't 44B+K (one of the fastest moves out there). someone did their CE in desperation because they were losing (another reason why i hate CEs). during the animation of their CE you could literally see my blade in their chest. it was in! not close, not around, but inside their chest. guess who won? the CE. CEs; a noobs best friend. >_>

@taffertier
This is exactly the reason....i tested raph CE a lot because i use it as followup to certain move to get "virtual" advantage on block because opponents knows this (if he don t i make them eat a couple of CE).

Take 66A+B (-4) for example on block it can be stopped only by fastest AA (i11) or they will pass through raph CE (i12).

Best for this are raph and patroklos'

 

[setto-kun]

against characters like maxi and Viola (with current insane viola buff to god tier patch) Tira is garbage.

Hilarious.

oh and the fact that namco made her a Jolly side focused character is further BS.

Twice the hilarious.

Jolly side has many punishable moves and on top of that is slow as hell.

Beyond the point of hilarious.

Tira's main weakness is range.

Words of wisdom.

 

[0VincentRayne0]

Hilarious.

umm...glad to know i'm a comedian to someone i guess.>_>

 

[Belial]

Actually, there are tournaments coming this and next weekend:
PSN this sunday and Captain Russia challenge next satruday.
Both will be streamed on twitch.tv/belialrus

Setto-kun is likely to win them both, so all Tira players wait for it.
Also you can check out Decopon from Japan.

 

[WuHT]

Actually, there are tournaments coming this and next weekend:
PSN this sunday and Captain Russia challenge next satruday.
Both will be streamed on twitch.tv/belialrus

Setto-kun is likely to win them both, so all Tira players wait for it.
Also you can check out Decopon from Japan.

got any for raphael players?

 

[Kyo-1]

I never said nerfing her will kill her, just that people's reaction to her is a little over board. There have been points in the previous thread and this one about certain nerfs killing her but it wasnt me. But this match up difficulty also ties into the point you're making. Viola already has weaknesses against characters that are powerful like Mitsu and Nightmare, if she gets nerfed to the point where her risk / reward is much worse and the other characters arent nerfed or balanced properly she will wind up having a much more difficult time than before.

You can change "Viola"'s name for most of the high/tops minus Alpha and Mitsu (Viola does not have an easy time vs Nighty??? Nighty must sweet blood to face her. She even can got a CH during 88_Nighty's 22B), but my main point was the fact that only TOPs and some HIGHs has almost the same posibilities, if not the same, to make a come back from a 0 - 2 against other tops while Mid/Low tiers must sweet as if they wanted to become the Niagara's Waterfalls themselfs.

 

[Belial]

got any for raphael players?

Actually yes. :)

 

[Tofma]

Also can you please explain why his CE is OP?

It's not. Some random scrubs online just keep running into his silly setups like idiots so he thinks it's too good.

Why are people bitching about this anyway? CE's are risky as hell and take a FULL BAR (On top that Raph's for example does a patchetic 75). I can see how having moves with invincibility all of a sudden in the series feels stupid. But just calm the F' down and dont run into them like an idiot. It's not OP or broken in the slightest.

There are 2 types of knockdowns. Ones where you get a free mixup because they're so close and ones where might want to think twice before running across the screen and starting an offense because that's when you are most likely to eat a wakeup move.

 

[darkfender]

......

cool you are from finland itseems you can show me you are not one of them if you have an X360 :D
actually if you read well you could find I am the one using the CE and not suffering it.....

 

[taffertier]

Take 66A+B (-4) for example on block it can be stopped only by fastest AA (i11) or they will pass through raph CE (i12).

But this is just a frame trap. Not really something to call over powered. You're counting on them to attack you instantly out of a marginally unsafe move, not even really a good risk when you know about it cause his CE is also pretty unsafe. As i said all it has going for it is the speed and it's not even the fastest one there is. It's a good move for interrupting some things and getting around some set ups but it's certainly not an over powered move.

You can change "Viola"'s name for most of the high/tops minus Alpha and Mitsu (Viola does not have an easy time vs Nighty??? Nighty must sweet blood to face her. She even can got a CH during 88_Nighty's 22B), but my main point was the fact that only TOPs and some HIGHs has almost the same posibilities, if not the same, to make a come back from a 0 - 2 against other tops while Mid/Low tiers must sweet as if they wanted to become the Niagara's Waterfalls themselfs.

Which is why i think the Mid / Lows should be buffed appropriately, as apposed to the rampant nerfs other people seem to think would be better. Viola could do with a damage nerf / scaling fix and a few frame adjustments but nothing drastic. Adjusting characters with a mallet is never the answer unless absolutely necessary. In most cases a few tweaks is all that needs to be done.

 

[Tofma]

cool you are from finland itseems you can show me you are not one of them if you have an X360 :D
actually if you read well you could find I am the one using the CE and not suffering it.....

Sorry. I'm on PS3

And I know you're the one using it. But just because it works on...whoever you're playing with doesnt really the change the fact that you're overrating Raphs CE.

 

[Kyo-1]

Which is why i think the Mid / Lows should be buffed appropriately, as apposed to the rampant nerfs other people seem to think would be better. Viola could do with a damage nerf / scaling fix and a few frame adjustments but nothing drastic. Adjusting characters with a mallet is never the answer unless absolutely necessary. In most cases a few tweaks is all that needs to be done.

Agree, and that is what i said/discussed in Maxi subforum to the people there (and my post were deleted. XD) and repeated here (but in other way): to balance a game (IMO) the best option is to left the TOPS as they are and buff the lows/mids to that level. Obviously, if a char has a "abussable move" (IE: Narut... er... Natsu A+B from the previous patch as Belial said) which make him/her top, i left that move untouchtable.

To "nerf" Viola, the best option i came is to remove all her buffs and fixing the delayable BE options she has. But, as you said, it his to lower her tier. That is why i only wrote about Maxi buffs and no the rest of the roster's nerfs/buffs. I am arguing to buff him, not to nerf the rest (but is more than obvious that Viola needs another fix for the Orb spacing/traking/whatever which makes the orb difficult to dodge in string).

 

[darkfender]

But this is just a frame trap. Not really something to call over powered. You're counting on them to attack you instantly out of a marginally unsafe move, not even really a good risk when you know about it cause his CE is also pretty unsafe. As i said all it has going for it is the speed and it's not even the fastest one there is. It's a good move for interrupting some things and getting around some set ups but it's certainly not an over powered move.

i put frames .... 12+4 should mean 16 not 11
its not a frame trap.....if opponent is in range at +4 his 2A should have the priority... .-. it should be a "safe bet"

Note that i could hit some player even after A+B on block (obviously they did expect the A and lost few frames but not so many)....it can really be used after so many negative moves and chances to hit are high...its risky but its effective..

It could be also -1000 (actually its TJ so ints not even so terrible) but the problem is that can be used as panic button.....well sort of leixia wrBE, but little worse.

Well for me it is OP but there are far worse things for sure...

@tofma i wouldn t call scrubs people i play with being most of them seasoned tournament players....now raph is not a problem.......
Lets think about pat 66B on block followed by CE ringout......

 

[taffertier]

To "nerf" Viola, the best option i came is to remove all her buffs and fixing the delayable BE options she has. But, as you said, it his to lower her tier. That is why i only wrote about Maxi buffs and no the rest of the roster's nerfs/buffs. I am arguing to buff him, not to nerf the rest (but is more than obvious that Viola needs another fix for the Orb spacing/traking/whatever which makes the orb difficult to dodge in string).

Viola could still use a few of those buffs, most of them were unnecessary though. Some things helped her quite a bit without being absurd like the frame buff to 33_99B and 66B, the adjustment to Set 4A+B, and the damage buff to WR B.

Set B+K BE however was buffed a little too much, something like 30 damage would be a nice medium instead of something as high as 50 or as low as 10, like it was prepatch.

i put frames .... 12+4 should mean 16 not 11
its not a frame trap.....if opponent is in range at +4 his 2A should have the priority... .-. it should be a "safe bet"

Note that i could hit some player even after A+B on block (obviously they did expect the A and lost few frames but not so many)....it can really be used after so many negative moves and chances to hit are high...its risky but its effective..

Pretty sure this qualifies it as a frame trap. What else could it be called? The opponent thinks they have the frames to attack after the attack is done but the invincibility compensates for it. They think it's safe to throw something out but if they do they'll be punished. It's like complaining that you get beat out by a move that leaves the opponent on +. I suppose a better term for it would be gimmick, but it's not a particularly powerful one, just one that people arent too familiar with, especially in SC as it never had to deal with these pseudo frame advantage set ups due to invincibility.

 

[Tofma]

Lets think about pat 66B on block followed by CE ringout......

Ok sure. I've got alot of experience about that since I play a local Pat player almost daily.

I eat 66b for breakfast, dinner and lunch and I still dont feel like it should be nerfed let alone made punishable. I just sort of...learned to deal with it at some point.

It's a great move, does ridiculous damage considering how safe it is and the range is laughably long. I understand totally why people want it nerfed but as long as a move has some sort of a weakness I can live with it.

 

[taffertier]

It's a great move, does ridiculous damage considering how safe it is and the range is laughably long. But as long as a move has some sort of a weakness I can live with it.

His CE honestly bothers me more than that move. It should have the damage reduced or ring out potential taken away i think.

 

[darkfender]

and what has that to do with CE? ._.
the problem is not only 66B on block but the cìfact that following that even if you know you SHOULD hit with a fast option before the CE you get ROed