Balance Patch Discussion

[sephalump]

Cervy's 1AB actually bothers me more than iGDR. I'd be fine if it wasnt a natural combo but it just seems excessively good. Why even bother giving him other lows when he gots that? aB is pretty stupid too. Compared to these two attacks iGDR doesnt seem as bad.

If 1AB wasn't nc it would be useless. He doesn't really have other lows that would even be good without the relative comparison of 1AB. His only decent low he really has otherwise is 11K. All his others are pretty poor to begin with.

 

[ShinJin]

I agree that 4B is retarded but it doesn't track you if you dont press a button, if you just move around it actually has zero tracking.

it also has almost zero wiff recovery so even if you do step it then attack mitsu can normally block everythng in time.

 

[WuHT]

I agree that 4B is retarded but it doesn't track you if you dont press a button, if you just move around it actually has zero tracking.

it also has almost zero wiff recovery so even if you do step it then attack mitsu can normally block everythng in time.

Thats why if you try to input your 22_88 punishment too early you will get CH'd and sent flying, and if you do it too late he'll just guard your attempt. It's unnecessarily difficult to defeat considering how solid mitsu's 4B already is

 

[taffertier]

If 1AB wasn't nc it would be useless. He doesn't really have other lows that would even be good without the relative comparison of 1AB. His only decent low he really has otherwise is 11K. All his others are pretty poor to begin with.

I wouldnt say useless, he just couldnt throw it out whenever he wanted anymore, it would be more like a low step killer. And seeing as it does even more damage on CH and leads into a knockdown that's how it should be used. If he's got 11K i dont know why he'd need an invisible low that deals 21 damage normally and on CH does 40+ and KNDs. As you said his low options arent all that strong, 1AB just seems out of no where. And if he were suddenly bereft of this move he wouldnt be that much worse off, his mid / low mix ups would just be less powerful.

 

[sephalump]

snip.

Why would they make a move that isn't nc -20. It's negative on hit and massively punishable on block. It's only 20 damage on nh(not really that much given the risk). It isn't like it's a terrifying mix up in its own right. If you aren't walking around or getting CH out of your attack(and it's short range at i18) the move isn't a scary mix up to his mids. Thus being a 20 damage nc low that's - on hit isn't that bad. It doesn't hit grounded either.

It's one of his singe best and most useful moves how it is now. It's one of the moves that defines him being able to control step at close range with risk to both him and his opponent. It's what makes 3B a solid move because step is made risky by getting CH off a proper read.
Last saying someone's low options aren't that good so they shouldn't have a good low is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. :\

 

[taffertier]

Why would they make a move that isn't nc -20. It's negative on hit and massively punishable on block. It's only 20 damage on nh(not really that much given the risk). It isn't like it's a terrifying mix up in its own right. If you aren't walking around or getting CH out of your attack(and it's short range at i18) the move isn't a scary mix up to his mids. Thus being a 20 damage nc low that's - on hit isn't that bad. It doesn't hit grounded either.

It's one of his singe best and most useful moves how it is now. It's one of the moves that defines him being able to control step at close range with risk to both him and his opponent. It's what makes 3B a solid move because step is made risky by getting CH off a proper read.
Last saying someone's low options aren't that good so they shouldn't have a good low is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. :\

Because it's not just a good move it's a great one. And it's got nothing to do with being negative on hit, that would be like saying aB isnt that good because it's punishable on block and negative. Just because a move has a couple draw backs doesnt mean it makes up for how good it is, there isnt a whole lot of risk to the move at all because of how fast it is, you cant react to it, you have to just predict it. If used properly there isnt much risk, the goal isnt to throw out the attacks hoping they'll block, it's used to catch them off guard or interrupt. When you look at a move you have to think about how applicable it is, i dont know how you can say it's his best and mose useful move and also say that it isnt a scarey mix up.

 

[sephalump]

Dear god. Ok. You win. Obviously 21 damage is a terrifying mix up. So terrifying in fact his low should be reduced to a whole 10 damage on nh with the risk of being left at -24 off an incorrect hit confirm for an additional 14 damage and being left at -6. Clearly the strongest part of this move is that it's nc. That's what should be removed. It's not like taking 10 damage off the CH JF and having the iGDR scale off the stun so it deals 55 damage would fix how heavy damage you get on CH.
My mistake to argue with someone of such all knowing proportions as yourself.

 

[taffertier]

Dear god. Ok. You win. Obviously 21 damage is a terrifying mix up. So terrifying in fact his low should be reduced to a whole 10 damage on nh with the risk of being left at -24 off an incorrect hit confirm for an additional 14 damage and being left at -6. Clearly the strongest part of this move is that it's nc. That's what should be removed. It's not like taking 10 damage off the CH JF and having the iGDR scale off the stun so it deals 55 damage would fix how heavy damage you get on CH.
My mistake to argue with someone of such all knowing proportions as yourself.

I dont know why you have to resort to being so visibly upset, i was just thinking it could do a little less damage on CH and NC. Your solution sounds like it would fit nicely. I think you're first mistake was actually not getting enough sleep as you got all grump rather quickly. All i'm saying is 21 damage off an invisible low seems excessive, than you got all uppity with your all knowing self.

 

[sephalump]

I'm obviously irritated because you're talking about something you obviously have no idea about and frankly I'm tired of seeing this site over run with posts of that nature.
Btw Viola's 1K, 6B+K is 33 damage off an invisible low that leads her at advantage and is safe on block. Pyrrha omega's is 22 damage, Algol's 1K is 20 damage leaving him at neutral frames, Mitsu's 2K by itself is 20, Pat's 1K is 20 and his 11K 18. All these moves are overpowered and deal way too much damage. I think an immediate nerf is needed to keep them from breaking the game.
I'm also baffled that most chances you got to use the incorrect homophone for a situation you did.

 

[taffertier]

I'm also baffled that most chances you got to use the incorrect homophone for a situation you did.

Not sure what you mean here but simply correcting people can go a long way in clearing up confusion. Part of the process in enlightening people to other characters means you'll have to correct them. I thought the move was too good and you explained why it isnt. There isnt much else to it than that. And i think WuHT said it best in an earlier thread as to why 1AB bothers me, i just couldnt express it.

"Cervantes seems to gain complementary benefits to his moves due to the properties of his other moves. His threat of his step kill helps reduce the chance of 3B being stepped, and the raw damage potential of eating a 3B makes twitch ducking a poor choice (which helps 1AB and his grab game)."

It's not necessarily 1AB by itself, it's how his whole movelist plays off itself. The tip range launch nerf seems far more agreeable than reducing the damage of an move that really only hurts off of CH.

 

[KingAce]

A-pat is fine. Why would you nerf an execution heavy character? A character like that should be very good. I doubt he wins many tournaments regardless. And that's really the bottom line. So far just like setsuka he's only dominating in theory land.

The problem with Cervy isn't iGDR, it's BE gdr that is imbalanced. That whole concept a safe igdr is relatively stupid IMO.

Buff weak characters, and stop there.

 

[taffertier]

A-pat is fine. Why would you nerf an execution heavy character? A character like that should be very good. I doubt he wins many tournaments regardless. And that's really the bottom line. So far just like setsuka he's only dominating in theory land.

The problem with Cervy isn't iGDR, it's BE gdr that is imbalanced. That whole concept a safe igdr is relatively stupid IMO.

Buff weak characters, and stop there.

The only thing that stops me from hating GDR BE is the fact that it's his only good use of meter outside of his CE (which isnt all that great i think) and GIs.

 

[setto-kun]

Why would they make a move that isn't nc -20?

Welcome to Tira JS 2AB.

 

[Oboro]

Yoshi's FC 3K is probably the best low in the game. Incredibly fast, long range, kills step and combos into 3B for like 45 damage. Good times!!

 

[sephalump]

Welcome to Tira JS 2AB.

And it being anything similar to that would defeat the purpose of the move, which is what I was saying the whole time :p.

 

[Maxou]

You can still buffer 214 from blockstun. It is i13 (did I do that right?). JF version is i12. They are both mid level. How is it not a punishing tool? It's just very easy to do it from tech crouch as you would only have to do 3a:b. That does not mean you can't do it from standing position.

Perhaps you don't use it as a punishing tool but I do.

More power to you then.
If you can keep up with punishing with JFT JFT AND keep a good defense AND keep a good defense, you're probably the best Alpha player I know.

You probably worked your ass off in training mode. Congrats. You're a sick player. Why didn't I see any vids of your Alpha ?

 

[Force-Destruct]

Yoshi's FC 3K is probably the best low in the game. Incredibly fast, long range, kills step and combos into 3B for like 45 damage. Good times!!

I'm just gonna say Mitsu 2KB.

 

[Paranormal_Oreo]

Yoshi's FC 3K is definitely better than Mitsu's 2K, B. Mitsu's 2K, B BE is a whole different story. Again though, Yoshi's low is better. Yoshi's has longer range, is done from crouch, can do close to as much damage, and doesn't require meter.

 

[Slade]

Mitsu 2KB BE can ring out, so there's that to consider.

 

[Force-Destruct]

Yoshi's FC 3K is definitely better than Mitsu's 2K, B. Mitsu's 2K, B BE is a whole different story. Again though, Yoshi's low is better. Yoshi's has longer range, is done from crouch, can do close to as much damage, and doesn't require meter.

2KB does 48 damage. Unreactable low. Does more than some characters actual throws (Nightmare). Free Mixups with BE version, BE version has Clean Hit A (I believe).