Balance Patch Discussion

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Oh well this got a bit carried away , number 32) is open for interpretation, voting will sort it out (probably :b)
 
Silencer said:
"Why are buffs to moves that don't affect wall combos still a bad thing?"

At the very first sentence you are trying to twist my words into something I have never said in any of my posts.

Number 32 is Leixia
32. General
a) Damage increase

I have voted to my current knowledge of the game, trying to not be biased, this entry is not saying, (oh only buff those moves that do not affect wall combos cheers)
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Did you not read my post? For the THIRD TIME NOW, a general damage increase on the poll does not necessarily mean a damage increase to ALL moves across the board. It means increasing certain individual moves which are not named (as they have not been decided upon) with the goal of increasing the character's damage in general on a round to round basis.

The point of the poll is to find out if the community agrees that she needs *some form* of damage increase in general. Since the very first post you made on the subject, found here:
Balance Patch Discussion, you used the big scary numbers on her very best wall combos as justification for denying her damage buffs in general. If the community votes yes on 32, there is no reason to assume that it means her wall combos are going to become OP. That said, for what reason would you oppose damage increases on Leixia, provided they didn't have any major effect on the combos you quoted? If damage increase isn't a solution to you, what is, then? You claimed you're on board with other kinds of buffs - what are they and why?

Silencer said:
This was not about your response to my suggestion. It was just a general note, however I understand, Belial chose to cut a lot of content. Not everyone shares the opinions presented here on Mitsu. What versatility? Mitsu is running on a limited amount of tools, taking a way something feels like a recipe for disaster
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Okay - I assumed you were directing that towards me. I digress.

In my opinion, a big chunk of Mitsu's versatility comes from the fact that he has the kind of damage necessary to make his mixups effective. Risk/reward works well enough in his favor that an intelligent opponent has to change up what they're doing if they want to avoid big damage. Leixia's general damage (outside of wall combos) is so low that a persistent opponent can safely guess wrong against her several times, then guess right just once and still end up even or at a life lead. Her mixups themselves aren't the problem, it's that none of the options in the mixups are threatening enough to force your opponent to adapt or die.

I'm not sure what you mean by "taking something away" from Mitsu, as I never saw anyone suggest anything like that.
 
Solo said:
On Topic: Sieg needs at least 50 meterless damage off of 3B (both knees) instead of the current 39. 39 damage of off your launcher is pretty sad don't you think?
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I can see why you're asking for Sieg buffs. The more I've played him, the more I learned.

It also makes so much sense now; the story behind Scharzwind. Sieg and Zwei became pals because they both whiff so much. Their code names were Whiffried and Zwhiff at the time, and their old group name was Scharzwhiff, but they changed it so scrubs don't catch on! *shot*

*Round 2* In all seriousness, I'm all for Sieg buffs (primarily his whiffing issues, which I can sympathize with) as long as Zwei gets some too. GO TEAM SCHARZWHIFF!!!! *shot again*
 
Seditious said:
Did you not read my post? For the THIRD TIME NOW, a general damage increase on the poll does not necessarily mean a damage increase to ALL moves across the board. It means increasing certain individual moves which are not named (as they have not been decided upon) with the goal of increasing the character's damage in general on a round to round basis.

The point of the poll is to find out if the community agrees that she needs *some form* of damage increase in general. Since the very first post you made on the subject, found here:
Balance Patch Discussion, you used the big scary numbers on her very best wall combos as justification for denying her damage buffs in general. If the community votes yes on 32, there is no reason to assume that it means her wall combos are going to become OP. That said, for what reason would you oppose damage increases on Leixia, provided they didn't have any major effect on the combos you quoted? If damage increase isn't a solution to you, what is, then? You claimed you're on board with other kinds of buffs - what are they and why?
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This process is not described anywhere on the vote thread, I just assumed that the votes are checked and that's that.

I said I was indifferent to Leixia, I have left other buffs open, more knowledgeable people can fill gaps without damage buff.

Edit: That said, for what reason would you oppose damage increases on Leixia, provided they didn't have any major effect on the combos you quoted?

Umm... in essence not increasing wall combo damages but regular ones.. seems like a better approach, I kind of fail to see how this is relevant, that is not what 32) is stating is it D :
 
WuHT said:
I tried very hard to remain objective in listing a "by-design" approach to show just how a character has intended areas of strengths and weaknesses, and how severe they are in when actually played. How am I being sour grapes? I don't recall ever falsely pretending that I don't care or don't want buffs due to my main ending up being low tier, nor did I ever excuse my losses for saying the game hasn't treated my character fair enough. I don't know why you're trying to call me out, and especially in the context of being a sore loser.

Changing anyone's damage will eventually reach a balance as long as you tweak it in the right direction. In Raph's case, if you only buff damage and nothing else (no bug fixes, no frame changes) then he'd approach mitsurugi damage and that is another step towards homogeneity. It is a faster but a lazier way to fix things if you disregard everything else. CH only benefits his pokes and not his combo starters (at least thats where I categorize 1K and prepK)
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You're taking this wayyyy too seriously. I'm not calling you out as a sore loser. You're very much not a sore loser.

No, just that I feel you're making Raph out to be a character wherein Namco got nothing right about him. I know I joke around about Raph sucking but the negativity about him is overwhelming. Raph can beat step, his moves are useful, his frames are not insurmountably bad. etc. etc. The only major issue I've ever had using Raph since SC2 days was his damage out put. He doesn't have to become a homogenized Mitsu 50/50 bonanza in damage terms nor become a Viola frame party to make up for his short comings. He has all the tools he needs they just don't hurt enough so Raph ends up giving NM plenty of time to land his 80% wall splat combo and win.

I do agree that they do need to fix it so his shit actually does work as intended. I'm sure these problems aren't limited to Raph though and lots o f characters have things that don't work right all the time like they should.

I dunno how good Raph was in 4 since I missed that train wreck but I feel this is the best Raph we've ever had. SC2 console is the only version that comes close and even he couldn't land a 22B~2A force stand into 66A+G throw for near 50% damage plus life gain. I should prolly stop cloggin' up this thread though. PM about this some time I got some neat ideas I wanna run by you.

Just to be certain I have much respect for what you've done in the Raph SA so do realize I'm not coming down on you one bit.
 
Real_Bojack said:
You're taking this wayyyy too seriously. I'm not calling you out as a sore loser. You're very much not a sore loser.
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O god what have I become? I've brought shame to our SA.

Here's the funny thing about a damage buff though: His verticals (from what the developers were saying in the preview vids) were going to have increased damage. Obviously all Raph users got worried because that's their secret signal for some other compensatory weakness, but would be fair if applied to an equal magnitude. I'm actually alright if Raph can barely manage to beat step (which is kinda what he is now). However, you'd expect him to have an assortment of useful and powerful verticals.

I don't think Raph verticals is top 5 relative to the rest of the cast but i know it isn't debateable that his horziontals are intentionally at the very bottom.

I don't know why I'm the only one going back to developer's comments about slotting characters into niches, but the key properties they wanted Raph to have were
1) fencing (don't know what tago meant by that, probably good verts, bad horizontals).
2) dodges (dodges against highs are awesome, his answers to vertical attacks are lacking).
3) control spaces by moving backwards forwards (which imo raph has a good backdash no complaints)
 
The nerfing of backdash G actually had this weird effect where it made certain characters way better. But for a character like Raph it's a huge nerf.
 
KingAce said:
The nerfing of backdash G actually had this weird effect where it made certain characters way better. But for a character like Raph it's a huge nerf.
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I've felt since day..... two maybe that Raph's biggest nerfs were system mechanic changes. I just don't bring it up ever because Namco ain't gonna patch away whole portions of the game. A character built on patience and defense fares poorly in a game with a guard meter. They also took away retreat guard and they also took away Raph's crouch dash and retreat step so he lacks options to help keep in his ideal range, sword+shield characters and Mitsu seemed to keep their crouch dashes but not Raph. Of all the things I would like from Namco, simple justification on their part for why they've done what they've done with Raph.

WuHT said:
O god what have I become? I've brought shame to our SA.

I don't know why I'm the only one going back to developer's comments about slotting characters into niches, but the key properties they wanted Raph to have were
1) fencing (don't know what tago meant by that, probably good verts, bad horizontals).
2) dodges (dodges against highs are awesome, his answers to vertical attacks are lacking).
3) control spaces by moving backwards forwards (which imo raph has a good backdash no complaints)
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No shame involved.

Well, in 2 at least Raph could do all of those things. As it stands he still sort of can. It all goes back to how it doesn't matter cuz Algy eventually gonna get the bubble bonanza fired up and catch up in damage fast. Think of it this way, Raph has say, 40% of his life left. NM has say 15% (just enough so one or two pokes won't kill him outright) and Raph is STILL at life disadvantage because he'll have to go somewhat long to make sure he can do more than that 15% health whereas NM just has land a single hit even against 40%. Fixing Raph's damage output across the board is the only way Namco will still be able to keep their intended design and make him more viable w/o a major overhaul, he won't be top tier still but it will be better. If we fix his frames here and there or alter a move property or two I doubt it would affect his tiering greatly.

So or now I'm trying to stay really positive and keeping my hopes down for any future Raph patches. This is the same dev team that thought that 22B was over powered in a game rife with half life combos and other characters doing looney tunes Marvel damage off of side step attacks.
 
KingAce said:
The nerfing of backdash G actually had this weird effect where it made certain characters way better. But for a character like Raph it's a huge nerf.
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._.
u sure? actually i think the opposite:
QSG and backstep G destroyed completely raph options removing 100% of his mixups....raph is still quite long so if you backstep you remain open and raph himself has options tu push opponent back rather than backstepping :D

3A, 2A are good and wrB is a good antithrow option not based on risk/reward but on pure speed. (means that you can 2into wrB quite fast...if opponent moves...and beat almost everything while avoiding throws).




Talking bout raph:

His 4A is the worse tech step in the game probably...he doesn t even step most non tracking verticals (or the TS is really late) the move was very situational back in scIV but had some uses now is completely awful the crumple stun is irrelevant imho :| it used to be an answer to things like mist/relic and such....



@bojack: about raph again...
Damage is not an issue..

The huge problem is:
the damage increase in the game makes linearity itself a real problem because a whiff costs no less than half bar...

Add to this the lack of mid threats....

as said opponent can GAMBLE about raph and win on raw % because guessing good even once changes a round...


Inact its one of the reasons because leixia is far better than raph....
 
darkfender said:
._.
u sure? actually i think the opposite:
QSG and backstep G destroyed completely raph options removing 100% of his mixups....raph is still quite long so if you backstep you remain open and raph himself has options tu push opponent back rather than backstepping :
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I don't really understand what you're trying to say.
Who backdashes against raph like ever? In any version of SC?

IMO the nerf does little for him offensively....you want to be in his face, where he can't take advantage of his range. Defensively however, the nerf is a huge set back.

Because when you back dash the system realigns the characters. So it's an effective tool to counter raw sidestep, especially for a character like raph who's taking a risk just for attacking.
 
I can give you my reasons

1st: lack of 8way step is what makes backstep nerf good for raph...
Means you can backstep or sidestep but differently from scIV you won t be backstepping diagonally and that leaves you open. (also if you are desperate random 236B works really well against changes of direction/backstep).



2nd: raph lost his superior range when someone at namco deicded any character needed half stage moves....and "detatched airplane wings" (cit.) for some of them.
Nw raph range is only average excluding his 6BB.
236B lost his power as a punisher with an overall unsafeness reduction of -20 moves beoming a whiff punisher.
For example prepatch nightmare could backstep and block evading most raph answers (3B/2K for example) and blocking any other option...same for many other character.
Now you can punish his backstep and discourage it.

3rd: Who backstep against raph? i could easily say that most matches against raph are easily won at long range where raph lack of MID TRACKING moves makes him easy to punish.....66A is really really bad but its the only tracking ranged move.
And it seems best player i played knows this very well considering they stay as far as possible.
Raph 11K, 2A and WrB along many other moves are really effective and at close range raph can easily space better whereas his linearity becomes less of a problem (his advantages on hit often negates step but they work only at close range .-.).
Also raph throw range used to be good but now is one of the worse in the game... but his throws leads to massive damage (B+G with wall or 66A+G) and RO, stayng away from them means staying away from damage.
Its not like scIV.......unfortunately.
 
Paranormal_Oreo said:
Lol I've learned every character in the game. So what. I'm still bad with a few of them. I've still learned them. Thats what matters. Try playing Z.W.E.I. against someone known thats good. Viola is SO EASY to play. Why do you think everybody has a pocket Viola? Is it JUST because she's top tier? No. Its because she's easy. If I wanted, I could have the best Viola on XBL within a month. Thats how easy she is. Damp and Z.W.E.I. are both very very hard characters. Definitely not easy.
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No, Viola is effective and those characters are know to be very very ineffective. When people learn how to fight against her, - instead of thinking "OMG she said fear, let's really be afraid now and do some stupid stuff so she can combo me for 120 damage!!!" - she will be a hard character again. But as of now, simple things work too well.
 
even when you know what the options are and when to guess viola does a ton of damage and is mostly safe, infact if she wanted to she can play a totally safe game but with low damage quite easily.
 
I think if Leixia's damage was buffed her guard damage should go down.

I agree that Sieg need more damage off of 3B on normal hit. NM gets around a third of your life with Clean Hit and over a quarter without.
 
Yes, but NM is custom built for landing his 3B, generally gets hurt a lot more when it is blocked, it is slower with no evasion and is the main way he scores damage. Especially since his throw nerf. Sieg is given a 3B with evasion because you're supposed to get CHs with it, hence the low NH damage. It was the same in SCIV.
 
Sieg gets a hefty 75 damage with two chances of clean hit (both of which are fairly high), ring out and wallsplat potential, all for one BE. Considering he's no slouch when it comes to meter gain, that's pretty good.
He also gets (what I think is a guaranteed) force block for SCH B after NH 3(B), which is advantage on block and does good guard burst damage, or a chance to go into SRSH for a mixup.
 
i'm still a trending topic on this topic ioi
and yes, zwei deserves a nerf
pyrrha a buff
nightmare a SUPER nerf, the biggest nerf everrrrrr in any freakin video game
and i'm not gonna start with mitsu... mitsu MITSU...
natsu should be buffed as well, her damage just isn't right

hilde, aeon and raphael need some nerfs as well
 
lxhizy said:
i'm still a trending topic on this topic ioi
and yes, zwei deserves a nerf
pyrrha a buff
nightmare a SUPER nerf, the biggest nerf everrrrrr in any freakin video game
and i'm not gonna start with mitsu... mitsu MITSU...
natsu should be buffed as well, her damage just isn't right

hilde, aeon and raphael need some nerfs as well
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Hey man im glad only like 1 person probably think's on this site zwei needs a damage nerf....that means there's a very good chance his damage won't even be touched :D
 
lxhizy said:
Pyrrha omega and alpha patroklos basic attacks are way too weak, zwei is a VERY VERY unbalanced character, plus he's all about follow ups, no real combos s:

they should also improve elysium's and hilde's critical edges damage (elysium for 120 and hilde for 140), since elysium is a mimic and hilde depends on the charges they should have some buffs, but Hilde needs nerfs as well.

i'm not really sure about siegfried yet, he's kinda overpowered but he's hot so... yea he needs some nerfs too
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Lol yeah you're a troll. Omega is the strongest female excluding Viola. Alpha has the best meterless damage and best wall damage in the game. Z.W.E.I. is one of the worst characters in the game. No real combos? Lol! You'd make Elysium's and Hilde's the best, most broken CEs in the game. Lol if you were on the balance team, NO ONE serious would play the game. It would be terribly unbalanced. Lol...
 
WuHT said:
Twice you've posted nothing but large images that contribute nothing to the discussion or some comment about a character not even in the game, so stop it.
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Errrrm, aye-aye, Cap'n.

Buff (just some examples):
-ZWEI
-Raphael
-Tira
-Dampierre
Nerf (just some examples):
-Mitsurugi
-Pyrrha
-Astaroth
-Viola

In no order, really. There are touchy aspects in each of these characters that make me shrug in total disbelief. Damage isn't the issue so much. It's how they deal damage and how easily they get in and out of things.
 
kAb said:
would people seriously stop talking to this guy.

if he isnt a troll he is beyond help.

if he is a troll he's sitting in his lazyboy in his basement jerking it to your responses. no need to reply to nonsense.
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Yeah...this. I'm all for cutting people a little slack, being nice to the newbies, and all that other stuff...But srsly. Too much here. Just no...


Anyhoozle...

WarIn54321 said:
Buff (just some examples):
-ZWEI
-Raphael
-Tira
-Dampierre
Nerf (just some examples):
-Mitsurugi
-Pyrrha
-Astaroth
-Viola

In no order, really. There are touchy aspects in each of these characters that make me shrug in total disbelief. Damage isn't the issue so much. It's how they deal damage and how easily they get in and out of things.
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I'm curious, why do you think Tira or Dampierre need any buffs? With Tira, I just don't see how any buffs are really called for with as good as GS is. With Dampierre I'm thinking his 80-110+ damage meterless combos and 50/50 mixups in PB(though of course competent players can usually knock him out of PB) are pretty nice.

Oh, and nerfs to Astaroth. What and why?
 
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