Ban Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Stiff

Serge2HOT4U

[09] Warrior
Ok, now that I have your attention, here's my breakdown of all this ban nonsense that's been happening. Kind of a long rant

First of all, in order to get into a mindset, i want you guys to read this:
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Tourneyfag

Aah, the tourneyfag, one who makes every attempt to play fair, bless his heart.
The trouble with smash, as stated by the creator himself, is that he never meant this to be a tournament game, so all of those bans were implemented by the smashers. Did they make sense? Maybe, but it is not my place to speak on the topic as i have never been an avid smasher (outside of "yooooo, lets party.... ICE CLIMBERS!!!").

Now, we move on to SC4, easily accepted as a competitive fighting game. To prove this to us further, Namco actually released a patch to balance things out - which shows us that they are at least committed to the gamers in some way.

Now, lets look at the structure of the characters by first grouping them:
Regular characters,
Star Wars characters,
Bonus characters,
Custom characters,
Algol

1. The Regular characters is what the game is centered around and balanced around. These are the guys that received numerous patches, and the balance of the game was based and designed around them.
2. Star Wars characters, in my opinion, should be counted with the regular characters. Sure, they are "guests" and "might not fit in", but they have been advertised as a selling point of the game since day 1, so they too get the similar balance treatment. As an example - look at The Apprentice, who received a boost to his force throw break to make him more competitive (but not broken), and on the other hand - Yoda, who cant be thrown BUT takes soul gauge like noones business, moves slow, and needs to make JUST FRAME BLOCKS to compete. And Vader, who deals massive damage, is mostly safe, but slow as fuck and his combos take a LOT of force. Intended advantages and disadvantages - why, isnt that balance?
3. Now we get to the tough part. I was honestly for the bonus characters for a while, but after playing a bit, i changed my mind. These characters all have someone else moves, which means they were added as an afterthought, yet their size completely skewers the balance issue because their balance is solely dependent on their "parent" characters. Example: Amy was designed and balanced to be fast, but mostly short range - Charizard is Amy without her range weakness. So whatever change was made to Amy reflected on Charizard, so balance was inadvertently affected.
4. Same as above. A character's size is built in to their balance. Amy needs a few 5 dollar footlongs, while nightmare doesn't, etc. This once again screws with the original balance of the game as applies to normal characters.
5. Algol.... Yes he is a boss, and depending on the game a boss can be overpowered or not. But lets look at it another way, the same way I've been looking at the other issues - character balance. Was Algol factored into the balance of the game (regular and star wars characters)? Is a high level Algol beatable by a high level ((insert character here))? Is there any point of using ((Insert Character here)) when Algol is available? My honest answer is no.


So what's my honest opinion?
In short: Don't ban star wars, don't ban Hilde, ban bonus chars, custom chars, Algol.
Star wars characters are a feature of the game and are regular characters. Hilde is a great character, but relies heavily on ringouts, but can be beaten by any character (and this is coming from a Xianghua player who, according to France, shouldn't stand much of a chance)

Now, we could unban Algol (and some places are doing that), and be all well and good as a fighting game community. Yet his power means that all the players that are on top will have no choice but to use him in order to keep up, and then these great players would basically have their fame up, but not as much as if they were known as, lets say, a great Cassandra player, a great Kilik player, a great Lizardman player, and so on.
We are already seeing two top players - KDZ from NJ and OOFMATIC from Canada, rely on counter picking, which made them fantastic in many tough matchups and has won them large tournaments. However, with Algol, that twiddles down the character roster counterpicks so much that a person wont be able to get their name up with a different character with algol around. Simply put, like Tekken 4 had a top roster of great Jin players (and 2-3 people that could counterpick each other), and the challenge of innovation was not present because 95% of the innovation would prove worthless.

Ban the obviously unbalanced, and we are good to go.


The flip side is emerging of course, of "Ban hilde, ban stages, ban dirty looks, etc". That, of course, comes from newer and medium tier players who have not realized or do not want to deal with relatively minor challenges. That is the Smash tourneyfag cry, lets not have it spread to such a level. plz ok



And to close out, lets compare this shit to UFC:

I give you Frank Mir (Asta) and Brock Lesnar (Voldo) ((ignore the size differences lol))
Frank Mir has great BJJ (ring out skills) while Brock Lesnar rushes the fuck down.
Did frank mir rush down lesnar? no, that would be silly.

Ring out

Now Mir is about to face Big Nog (Hilde):

Now Nog has even better BJJ (ringouts) than Mir(Lets imagine that the doom combo works on Asta lol), Does Mir go for a Ringout? Hardly, he keeps it standing and knocks Nog the fuck out.

Mir makes his Mir face




And now we have this guy:

Notice, he is a random guy with a gun. He can probably beat Mir by shooting him (there is a chance that Mir can disarm the man, but small)..... Unless Mir himself has a gun.
"Oh shit son, Frank Mir got a gun!!!"
And then the UFC becomes a bunch of people shooting each other. ((Algol users))



EDIT:
Or Dick Punchers (legal in earlier UFC's), but banned so we can focus on the kicking, BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling that make the sport great
[Youtube=UFC Before Bans]57Mva-3n7TY[/youtube]
 

rashreflection

[09] Warrior
serge owns

that said, namco nerfed algol more than anyone else in the patch, so clearly he was intended to be a competitive character. and guns can coexist with even fists (much less swords), as we have learned from practically every 2-D fighting game ever made.

still a p. good post though!
 

JetSetDizzy

[11] Champion
that said, namco nerfed algol more than anyone else in the patch, so clearly he was intended to be a competitive character. and guns can coexist with even fists (much less swords), as we have learned from practically every 2-D fighting game ever made.

Good point!
 

Countee

[09] Warrior
It's not guns. Its rocks. Algol is throwing little rocks that do minor damage and distract to leave openings. In addition everyone has the ability to stop these rocks perfectly every time just by holding out their weapon. Even more in addition to this, every person has the ability to knock these rocks right back at Algol..and thats if they don't feel like just walking around them.

If you want to argue that rocks are broken that's fine, but calling a 10pt damage slow ass moving bubble a machine gun goes beyond comic exaggeration.

Loved that last pic though.
 

BLDave

[09] Warrior
3. Now we get to the tough part. I was honestly for the bonus characters for a while, but after playing a bit, i changed my mind. These characters all have someone else moves, which means they were added as an afterthought, yet their size completely skewers the balance issue because their balance is solely dependent on their "parent" characters. Example: Amy was designed and balanced to be fast, but mostly short range - Charizard is Amy without her range weakness. So whatever change was made to Amy reflected on Charizard, so balance was inadvertently affected.

4. Same as above. A character's size is built in to their balance. Amy needs a few 5 dollar footlongs, while nightmare doesn't, etc. This once again screws with the original balance of the game as applies to normal characters.

I can appreciate the logic train you are on, but its pretty flawed in some substantial ways.

First of all, you are right in the fact that the bonus characters aren't primary targets for balancing based on the fact that they mimic the moveset of whatever character they mirror.

This would be a major concern if say, Scherherazade (using amy's quick moveset) had the rang of......say Siegfried. This isnt the case. The reality of the situation is that Scher has slightly more range than amy. Not enough to confer any huge advantage that amy herself would not have. Even if this were the ONLY change to the amy moveset, it isnt enough to throw this game out of balance. Another reality of the situation is that Scher is larger and heavier than amy, making it harder for amy to avoid certain things and making certain combos potentially work that dont on amy. This further enforces the balance by making you take a small disadvantage for having the small advantage of the extra range.

The same goes for all of the bonus characters with the possible exception of shura. She seems to be cervantes (same size and weight) with a little bit of extra range. Again, this small bonus to the cervy moveset is not nearly enough to throw the game out of balance even a little.


5. Is a high level Algol beatable by a high level ((insert character here))? Is there any point of using ((Insert Character here)) when Algol is available? My honest answer is no.

Algol IS beatable by a high level (insert character here).
There is a point in using (insert character here) when algol is available.
Algol is good, great even, but he isn't without his weaknesses, and i don't believe him to even be the best in the game/top 3, arguably 5.


Ban the obviously unbalanced, and we are good to go.

ah, but the obvious isnt so obvious now is it.

and for the record, counter picking exists in this game without algol, and in every fighting game. its inherant of having a game in which there are character differances. Someone or something is always going to be better/worse and have an advantage/disadvantage over another.

Cute stuff about the UFC though, i lol'd :)
 

Tidus_Crescent

[09] Warrior
If you want to argue that rocks are broken that's fine, but calling a 10pt damage slow ass moving bubble a machine gun goes beyond comic exaggeration.

He's trying to show that it gives a HUGE advantage over his opponent. Bubbles can make almost all of algol's moves safe, bubble shield, shit...1 bubble can even sometimes can block the camara for a second with another bubble in front of him...then a possible free throw because your opponent cant see. Bubble options are almost endless. Nobody even thinks about these things. They just look at the bubbles damage and frame data and say...Theres nothing wrong with it -_-
 

Sora

[11] Champion
Agreed. I could easily turn this argument around by saying that there's no point to using any character but Hilde to beat Hilde, ergo by your logic, she should be banned.

Not saying that I believe that, but seriously though, there needs to be more evidence to prove that a character is "obviously unbalanced" than just opinions.

Again, I reiterate: Hard Data.
 

KowtowRobinson

[10] Knight
The same goes for all of the bonus characters with the possible exception of shura. She seems to be cervantes (same size and weight) with a little bit of extra range. Again, this small bonus to the cervy moveset is not nearly enough to throw the game out of balance even a little.

Shura is just a cunt, ban plz.

Seriously though, no need to ban anything right now except Shura for tryin to be like me.
 

Hot Rod Dave

"Saucy saucy minx"
that pic of the guy with the gun....does he have a life preserver on........

"hey biff look at this guys life preserver.....dork thinks hes gonna drown."
 

Serge2HOT4U

[09] Warrior
Ok, since some people have not seen this vid, i am reposting in the same thread

[Youtube=UFC Before Bans]57Mva-3n7TY[/youtube]
Dick punch

Dick punches were legal in the first few UFCs (even though they were won by noted non dick puncher).
Now, dick punches are banned in the UFC, amongst other things.
Could the top fighters in the UFC deal with dick punches? Of course, they would probably have some dick punching strategy of their own, combined with eye pokes as the dick punchers grew better and stronger.
And now:

Imagine getting punched in the dick my this thing

To make stuff watchable (and a lot of us are trying to push SC4 into the limelight for more exposure, moneys, etc), you need rules. Rules that allow you to be creative, and dont allow dick punches.

And now to further illustrate my point:


[Youtube=Fair And Balanced Algol]G-4JMHo6WUM[/youtube]
 

Sporko

Big Gimpin
Did Lesnar and Mir already have their rematch? Or is that from their first match? (the leg lock looks applied from a different position, but when I saw it the first time the camera was on the other side so I could just be confused by camera angles)
 

Dullyanna

[10] Knight
1 bubble can even sometimes can block the camara for a second with another bubble in front of him...then a possible free throw because your opponent cant see.

You know what's funny about that? Algol can't see for that single second or two, either. I don't know about you, but unless I'm completely fucking surrounded by three other masterfully placed bubbles, then I can do the same shit to him.
 

Tiamat

[11] Champion
And now we have this guy:

Notice, he is a random guy with a gun. He can probably beat Mir by shooting him (there is a chance that Mir can disarm the man, but small)..... Unless Mir himself has a gun.
"Oh shit son, Frank Mir got a gun!!!"
And then the UFC becomes a bunch of people shooting each other. ((Algol users))

I laughed so fucking hard. Thank you Serge
 

Tidus_Crescent

[09] Warrior
You know what's funny about that? Algol can't see for that single second or two, either. I don't know about you, but unless I'm completely fucking surrounded by three other masterfully placed bubbles, then I can do the same shit to him.

He doesnt need 3...Only 1 in front of him. So even if he cant see either...hes protected by a bubble. You cant GI what you cant see.